[BTS] Jacob's Shadow game

[krikav]

I'm really no gameplay expert, but it looks to me like the desert 1W of the horse would be a nice place to settle. You'd get the of the improved horses as well as the three floodplains with a border pop.
Of course the horses can be pillaged, and you'd need to build a building to get the floodplains... but like I said, I'm not a gameplay expert.
I'm curious as to why nobody suggested monuments. Is Mysticism for the monuments + border pops not a good idea early on?

Thank you so much for joining the discussion!

1W of the horse has the merit that it is a city that can work the horses, and horses are an resource tile and those are generally good and worthwhile to work.
1W of the horse also has the merit that you settle on a bad tile, in this case a desert, this is something you should always do if you have the option. A desert doesn't give any food nor hammers, but a city tile at least gives 2f 1h 1c.

Monuments are great because borderpops grant more tiles to cities. And it's something that I want in almost every city and in almost every game.
The problem is that it usually requires that you tech mysticism, and that you have to invest first 30 hammers, and then wait for 10 turns before you see the benefit.
This is something very expensive and time consuming, and if the map in some way allows for city settlement in such a way that you can skip monuments alltogether, or at least postpone it until after you have other key techs in, I go for that.


I appreciate your comments, because it illustrates a very important concept imho.
It's not that you have to sieve away bad options and have just the correct action left.
You constantly have to prioritize between ok options and the really good ones.

 

[Oblivionyx]

Thank you so much for joining the discussion!

1W of the horse has the merit that it is a city that can work the horses, and horses are an resource tile and those are generally good and worthwhile to work.
1W of the horse also has the merit that you settle on a bad tile, in this case a desert, this is something you should always do if you have the option. A desert doesn't give any food nor hammers, but a city tile at least gives 2f 1h 1c.

Monuments are great because borderpops grant more tiles to cities. And it's something that I want in almost every city and in almost every game.
The problem is that it usually requires that you tech mysticism, and that you have to invest first 30 hammers, and then wait for 10 turns before you see the benefit.
This is something very expensive and time consuming, and if the map in some way allows for city settlement in such a way that you can skip monuments alltogether, or at least postpone it until after you have other key techs in, I go for that.


I appreciate your comments, because it illustrates a very important concept imho.
It's not that you have to sieve away bad options and have just the correct action left.
You constantly have to prioritize between ok options and the really good ones.

Happy to be here

Oh, I see! I usually go for Mysticism and time it to finish right when I settle my second city. Before that, I research worker techs. I'm not to keen on going straight for BW since I always get swarmed by barbarian hordes before I build Axemen

What about Stonehenge? I don't see many people building it in their games, probably cuz the AI loves it so much.

Anywhooo, back to topic. I think settling 1S of the crab is a good idea, but there'll be some empty space between it and the 1W horse city if you decide to settle there. Hope you don't mind empty spaces

 

[lymond]

Farb - Looks okay, but I would have been building a settler before the 4th worker. Regardless, get that settler started now.

I like settling on the Horses. (one could make an argument to settle 1NE of horse as a helper city)

I did not mean for you to stop working the Gold, Farb. Gran there could have been chopped while working the gold. I believe I may have confused you on this point earlier.

Settling on Horse and 1S of Crab would be the next city priorities.

Lastly, a couple of the warriors (NW and SW) should be farther out spawn busting. At stand the on the hill to the SW and move the warrior in the NW several tiles W. Scout is not doing much standing right next to Sitting Butt's borders. Plop him up on that gold tile for now.

=======
@Oblivionyx - welcome to the forum. Based on what you have said so far, sounds like you have a lot to learn. Mysticism is often usually avoided. As we have guided Farb so far, you can avoid the need for border pops by settling wisely. Notice how his cities have what they need to work right now without need for border pops. Ofc, Creative is always a nice trait.

Avoiding BW is not logical at all. It is one of the most important early techs, and not for copper. It allows chopping and whipping which majorly increases your production. Slavery is the single most powerful mechanic in this game. As for barbarian hordes, I'd be interested in what level and what settings you currently play. There are ways around this problem, but if you are playing Huge maps or something, you are just increasing your pain.

Experienced players don't build Stonehenge because it is a waste of hammers. It is not important. If I happen to start with Myst, I might put some overflow hammers into it for fail gold, especially if I have the Industrious trait. But if you are playing on high difficulties, things like Stonehenge are very much a distraction.

ha..empty space is empty space

 

[lymond]

@Farbulous

On another note, I recommend joining up on the next Succession Game of the Month. It should be starting up in a few weeks. Succession games are teams that play a specially created map by the SGOTM staff with specials rules and stuff. Teams compete to meet the victory requirements of the SGOTM and whatever the actually designated game victory is. Playing with others in this slow and deliberate type game, with much planning, is a great way to learn. I believe my team is full, but with more sign-ups some new teams will form and you will likely get some very experienced players to learn from on your team. Oh..and they are quite fun.

All experience levels are welcome!

You can find the sign-up thread (and forum) here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/sgotm-26-sign-up-thread.632164/

@Oblivionyx this applies to you as well

 

[Farbulous]

Farb - Looks okay, but I would have been building a settler before the 4th worker. Regardless, get that settler started now.

I like settling on the Horses. (one could make an argument to settle 1NE of horse as a helper city)

I did not mean for you to stop working the Gold, Farb. Gran there could have been chopped while working the gold. I believe I may have confused you on this point earlier.

Settling on Horse and 1S of Crab would be the next city priorities.

Lastly, a couple of the warriors (NW and SW) should be farther out spawn busting. At stand the on the hill to the SW and move the warrior in the NW several tiles W. Scout is not doing much standing right next to Sitting Butt's borders. Plop him up on that gold tile for now.

Thanks for the guidance as always. A couple times you've advised settling on the horse, but above in your response to @Oblivionyx you mention the benefits of settling in the desert. Is there a reason you're suggesting on the horse in this instance? Just a little confused over here.

I'll get those warriors moved further out ASAP.

 

[krikav]

Settling on plains horses give you a city with 2F 2H 1C, so you gain one extra hammer early on.
That, and you don't have to spend 4+2 worker turns roading and putting down a pasture.
You get a quick benefit right away, which usually trumps a bigger benefit over time.

Settling on a desert to "kill" a bad tile is something that you consider, but it's not high up on the list of priorities.
If you happen to find yourself in isolation on a lone island, such considerations jump up abit higher, since you usually are abit low on available land and need to make best use of what you have.

 

[lymond]

you mention the benefits of settling in the desert. .

I think you may be referring to krikav. I never mentioned settling on the desert or any benefits thereof.

 

[Farbulous]

I think you may be referring to krikav. I never mentioned settling on the desert or any benefits thereof.

You are correct sir! My bad!

 

[Farbulous]

What's my next move?

Spoiler T60 :

Tech path has been: Fish>AG>POT>Writing and now researching Math. I have OB with all except Japan.

Granaries have been built in Berlin and Hamburg, and the ones in Munich and Cologne should be done shortly. Settler is on his way to the crab spot. I switched Hamburg to work the rice once the WB was fishing for Munich, so that I could grow to pop2, and now working gold and rice.

NW warrior moved closer to the beaver, and scout moved SW to dyes.

My plan in the crab city was to go straight for WB, chopping the hill forest to get it out fast, then granary. I've got libraries as placeholders in Berlin and Hamburg, not knowing what better to build at this time.

 

[lymond]

Ok..good good. Lot's a good..a couple of bad, but really more about ..you know..things to learn

1) Cologne in perfect position to 1 pop that Granary. (Keep in mind my whole discussion of granary optimization - reread if you wish. Now what I 'd like you to do is 1 pop that granary, and the tell me what the food bar says in Cologne this turn, and then tell me what it says next turn. Give me the numbers, including food surplus - delta of food gained vs. food used)

edit: use mouse tooltips

Here is a bit of a visual aid:

Spoiler Cologne is hungry :

2) problems in Hamburg. Good that you let city take food after Granary was built..not sure if you went back and replayed it and/or optimized granary. Ham is right where it should be at the moment and Library there is fine.

The problem is what your workers here have been doing. First, I should point out that Ham and Munich overlap tiles. This is good as they can share tiles like farms and mines..whatever.

again, a visual masterpiece to guide you:

Spoiler HamMunbergichstein :

Ham itself does not need mines...why?...it has little food. So what does it need? More farms. Where is a good place for a farm? Next to the Rice. 2 reasons: Ham and Munich can share it if needed. Same with a grass river mine just south of there - mainly for Munich. But again, mines are not the priority right now.

so, the mine W of Hamburg was a waste of worker turns

Also, look at Munich and see if there are better tiles to work at the moment.

3) Good on crab city. Focus on wb first, then get up a road

4) I think Lib in Berlin is good now. can grow into the scientists

5) Periculture's scout is protecting just NW this turn. Warrior in far NW might venture a tad more NW to see if you might spy anything interesting

6) Peri built stonehenge so corn/gold spot is tenuous. It will take forever to overtake the corn, but you could still consider settling 1N of gold and then look to put Peri out to pasture.

7) Another city spot I like is 1E of Berlin plains cow but not a priority as it is backfill. However it is a "helper city"

8) FPs in Cologne will be farmed.

Lastly, not sure if mentioned but also note the trick with workers if they are targeting a spot 2 tiles away. If not a dead stop (forest/hill/jungle), trick is to put a turn into an improvement or road on the way there.

(edit: note on screenshots.. your screenies are relatively useless to us right now. Too small and the FoV to far out. If you can't find a way to enlarge pics on photobucket, I suggest lowering FoV some, maybe about halfway looks better - slider in the top right area - and just take more pics of certain areas of interest, or even inside cities themselves. Pretty much anything you wish to show or have questions about. I generally open the save directly, but sometimes advice can be given directly from the shots. You can also use Imgur, which is free)

 

[Farbulous]

Ok..good good. Lot's a good..a couple of bad, but really more about ..you know..things to learn

1) Cologne in perfect position to 1 pop that Granary. (Keep in mind my whole discussion of granary optimization - reread if you wish. Now what I 'd like you to do is 1 pop that granary, and the tell me what the food bar says in Cologne this turn, and then tell me what it says next turn. Give me the numbers, including food surplus - delta of food gained vs. food used)

edit: use mouse tooltips

Here is a bit of a visual aid:

Spoiler Cologne is hungry :

2) problems in Hamburg. Good that you let city take food after Granary was built..not sure if you went back and replayed it and/or optimized granary. Ham is right where it should be at the moment and Library there is fine.

The problem is what your workers here have been doing. First, I should point out that Ham and Munich overlap tiles. This is good as they can share tiles like farms and mines..whatever.

again, a visual masterpiece to guide you:

Spoiler HamMunbergichstein :

Ham itself does not need mines...why?...it has little food. So what does it need? More farms. Where is a good place for a farm? Next to the Rice. 2 reasons: Ham and Munich can share it if needed. Same with a grass river mine just south of there - mainly for Munich. But again, mines are not the priority right now.

so, the mine W of Hamburg was a waste of worker turns

Also, look at Munich and see if there are better tiles to work at the moment.

3) Good on crab city. Focus on wb first, then get up a road

4) I think Lib in Berlin is good now. can grow into the scientists

5) Periculture's scout is protecting just NW this turn. Warrior in far NW might venture a tad more NW to see if you might spy anything interesting

6) Peri built stonehenge so corn/gold spot is tenuous. It will take forever to overtake the corn, but you could still consider settling 1N of gold and then look to put Peri out to pasture.

7) Another city spot I like is 1E of Berlin plains cow but not a priority as it is backfill. However it is a "helper city"

8) FPs in Cologne will be farmed.

Lastly, not sure if mentioned but also note the trick with workers if they are targeting a spot 2 tiles away. If not a dead stop (forest/hill/jungle), trick is to put a turn into an improvement or road on the way there.

(edit: note on screenshots.. your screenies are relatively useless to us right now. Too small and the FoV to far out. If you can't find a way to enlarge pics on photobucket, I suggest lowering FoV some, maybe about halfway looks better - slider in the top right area - and just take more pics of certain areas of interest, or even inside cities themselves. Pretty much anything you wish to show or have questions about. I generally open the save directly, but sometimes advice can be given directly from the shots. You can also use Imgur, which is free)

This is all great stuff.

I'm gonna focus this response on the granary issue. I did whip in Cologne, and what I saw is that the total leftover from production is the same, even with one less citizen to work tiles. So, before the whip it was 7-4=3 and after it shows 5-2=3 so there is still the same amount of food available to the city. Hovering over the food bar, before the whip I saw 8/24 and after I see 8/22. I guess what this means is that now it will take less turns for the city to grow. I'm probably missing some nuance here, but those are the numbers.

 

[Farbulous]

On the right track?

Spoiler T70 :

Northern cities

Southern cities

After Writing I got Math and now on Alpha. Prioritizing granaries. I can see a 1pop whip up in "new" Cologne (crab city), but I'm also chopping so I don't think it's necessary. I did 1pop whip the granary in Munich. Chopped out the granary in Frankfurt and now onto Library. I didn't know what else to build in Berlin after the library, so I built another settler and worker and got Essen (helper city) up 1E of plains cow. Building another worker because I don't know if I should let it grow to 6, and not sure what else to do. Put in a couple farms where suggested, and now wondering if cottages should start being built? I haven't roaded copper, but I can see that Periculture has copper, so I don't know how easy it will be taking him down. Sitting Bull might be a better target, but he's also had lots of time to build dog soldiers and archers. Also, since I have never played around with citizens/scientists/etc, I'm not sure what to do once libraries are built, but I get that it affects number of tiles worked.

 

[Oblivionyx]

@lymond Yep, I've just started looking into the more strategic side of Civ 4. I play on Noble, Standard, with Agg AI and Raging Barbs on.

I'll see if I can join one of those SGOTM games, it looks interesting. In the meantime, I'll just be watching this thread to learn more stuff. All this seems to be very good advice!

 

[Farbulous]

@lymond Yep, I've just started looking into the more strategic side of Civ 4. I play on Noble, Standard, with Agg AI and Raging Barbs on.

I'll see if I can join one of those SGOTM games, it looks interesting. In the meantime, I'll just be watching this thread to learn more stuff. All this seems to be very good advice!

Make sure to check out @OldDude 's thread as well if you haven't already. That was the inspiration for this one.

 

[lymond]

@Oblivionyx Ha..well, Raging barbs is not doing you any favors. I mean it can be fun to play it sometimes, but if you are learning the game it is just hurting you. Agg AI is kinda inconsequential - AI just builds more units and likely slows the overall tech pace. Hope to see you sign up for the SGOTM (@Farbulous too). In meantime, try the Nobles Club Gilgamesh game too...lot's of advice there. Been helpin' Old Dude there some (he did sign up for SGOTM! )

@Farbulous Did not provide a save on last update

As for the Granary exercise, I wanted you to see the before and after on the Granary completion. Yep it is 8/22 after the whip. And you have 3F surplus this turn. What I wanted you to see was next turn that the food bar would read 11/22. So haflway which is where you want to be or lower than 11, so Granary has time to do its work storing food for when city grows to next pop. Start looking at this more as you build granaries in cities and see how it impacts how fast your cities grow. There is a reason the Granary is the single most important building in the game.

When you apply the effects of a Granary to the growth rate of your cites, you can whip more and whip faster which just simply exponentially increases the early game production. FOOD=PRODUCTION is the most important concept of this game.

 

[Farbulous]

@lymond sorry about that... save added.

 

[lymond]

Ok..not bad. Still some things we need to get you thinking about. The timing here are not quite what I expect, but since you are playing and not me it can be hard to entirely gauge the progression of things. I'm gonna kinda pose things more as questions than just feeding you answers.

1) The first problem that is start to pop up is the lack of workers. I would keep a rule of at least 1 per city for - more does not hurt. I know Berlin is building a 5th worker, but was is the problem with Berlin and that worker?

2) Speaking of Berlin, what is an important thing that Berlin should have been doing almost immediately when the library arrived or as it grew? I've alluded to this elsewhere

3) I provide once again a little visual aide here: Why will those spots be cottaged first?

Spoiler shall we share :

4) Cologne - hmmm...what could we do here right now?

5) Not sure what 2 of those workers are doing. I guess one is going to chop granary near Essen. 1 worker near Essen is fine for now. The other appears to be moving that way, but the Southern cities need help or maybe start some cottages near Berlin. Keep in mind the timings of things..you really don't want to ever be working unimproved tiles. I think you you have been jumping workers for one area to another without fully thinking about the needs of all cities. And granted you do NOT have enough workers right now.

Always think about your worker actions..each one counts

5) Not really liking not having a warrior in the SW area..Scout is fine, but you don't want area totally unprotected. Scouts can spawnbust but they are not protection. Warrior in far NW seems like he is in perfect bust spot at the moment, but the other warrior nearer to Cologne is not really doing anything in that position..he could move to the SW.

6) I like the fish/fur spot up there and would consider grabbing it before Peri. Where is a good place for getting even another settler and worker?

7) I'd really like to have foreign trade routes one way or another long before now. You miss out on a lot of commerce. Guess you haven't really had the bandwidth on workers for roads. Sailing on this level actually might be better after alpha (you might be able trade even writing for it, but if not tech it) Don't trade any techs though without update first.

Okay..I think that is all I got at the moment. Feel free to be collaborative and ask more question..think about best next moves. Also, think about Freddie's traits and what they mean.

 

[Farbulous]

@lymond wow - I've got a lot to think about. I like having these things as questions, because I do want to work through the ideas and learn them rather than just having them fed to me.

1) This is a little confusing, especially in conjunction with what you say in point 5) because there you do say I have enough workers. I think you're right though, I probably don't have enough at this point, especially if, based on point 7), I should have been roading to other civs for trade routes/commerce. To answer your question, the problem in Berlin is that I have all that food sitting there going to waste. I should know this by now. D'oh!

2) I think once the library was online I should have switched two citizens to scientists, working towards my first GS.

3) Those spots will be cottaged first so that they can be swapped and worked by more than one city so that their development is constant. I wasn't sure when to start building cottages because previously you had said that it was too early. Still not clear on the timing of this, and when situationally to build cottage vs farm.

4) Not completely sure about Cologne. Should I be improving those hills? Mining them? Cottaging them? Can Cologne build the settler to go up in the fish/fur spot?

5) This seems pretty straightforward. I'll get a warrior down there instead of the scout.

6) Which tile would be best to settle the new city on? I'm thinking the one tundra tile right in the middle of it all.

7) I'll pause once Alpha comes in before executing any trades, but will most likely replay again from an earlier save to try to tighten things up based on recommendations thus far.

The biggest issue for me overall is speed of play. I'm so used to playing much faster, and it's a really hard habit to break. Maybe I should, as @krikav suggested, set a 5 minute timer and just stick to that each turn. Even if it means double and triple checking things. I know it will help with my overall analysis and decision making.

One major question I've had is what to build when there is nothing else pressing at the moment. Should warriors just be the default if there is nothing else that makes sense?

Frederick is ORG/PHI. So, cheap LH and CH. I suppose that is another reason to get sailing sooner rather than later (along with foreign trade routes). Reduced civics upkeep maybe speaks to getting Mids for the shift to representation. I think CoL and Civil Service also become priorities in order to leverage bureaucracy and the aforementioned cheap CHs. PHI also means faster GP emergence. Not sure how to leverage this yet, but I'm sure it can be powerful if done properly. Am I on the right track with these thoughts?

 

[krikav]

One major question I've had is what to build when there is nothing else pressing at the moment. Should warriors just be the default if there is nothing else that makes sense?

Yes! This really is a major question.

If there is still land to settle, or you have land that is ill improved, then you can and should build settlers/workers.
If that is not the case, you can always build research/wealth once you have alpha/currency.
Another common thing before those techs is to build wonders that you have no intent of finishing, once someone else finish them you get failgold. If you are IND, or do have the resource (marble for Parthenon is a classic example) you continue to build wonders for failgold even after wealth.

But if you really have nothing worthwile to build, don't work the mines, just run specialists and/or grow your cities population.

This is very common in my games. While I'm teching toward a key military tech I grow your cities population so that I have fodder for the whip once I have construction/engineering/military tradition/steel or what the tech now may be.
That way I stockpile production in the form of population for when I need it.

I much rather work coast (2f2c) than grassland hill mines (1F3H) if I really don't have anything worthwhile to build for example.
Even a plains hill copper (6H) I usually don't work if I don't need the production, but need the commerce and food.[/user]

 

[krikav]

Frederick is ORG/PHI. So, cheap LH and CH. I suppose that is another reason to get sailing sooner rather than later (along with foreign trade routes). Reduced civics upkeep maybe speaks to getting Mids for the shift to representation. I think CoL and Civil Service also become priorities in order to leverage bureaucracy and the aforementioned cheap CHs. PHI also means faster GP emergence. Not sure how to leverage this yet, but I'm sure it can be powerful if done properly. Am I on the right track with these thoughts?

Yes, you are really on the right track in that you are thinking and analyzing and making conclusions.
I haven't really paid much attention to the reduced civics upkeep bonus of ORG. I simplify the matter into "Oh, I'm org, that means I can expand more and more rapidly."
The cheaper courthouses I like, they make them abit less situational than normal courthouses, but they still are not something that you should build automatically everywhere.
If you have your capital in one edge of your empire and alot of cities really far away, they are golden however. Look at the city upkeep and make a mental calculation "I invest 60 hammers and reduce my upkeep from 6 gold to 3 gold per turn."

In a standard coastal city, normal build is usually granary->lighthouse, but with org this is reversed since you get the lighthouse up earlier and get the benefit quicker.

Prioritizing rep, burocracy etc because of reduced civics costs is wrong IMHO. Civics are choosen because you need their benefit. The cost is not really something you consider in the wast majority of cases.