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JAR02, Always War Emperor

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    With the narrow landmass and no fresh water, so all settlements are towns, cats are less of an issue. It felt a bit inadequate pinging a spear atop a stack of swords though (esp. on those mountains!).
     
  2. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    True, for mountain pinging you need a few more cats. Fortunately, the AI prefers to bypass Vilcas, giving abundant opportunities for second-pings :D
     
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  3. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Well, we have a sword army now. There are a lot of swords in the vicinity of Vilcas, though. A horde of swords arrived shortly after we got our sword army, and so it hasn't been able to go on the offense.
    Mapmaking is due in 6 turns - galleys will allow us to move swords across speedily and this will be a big help.

    turn log:
    Turn 0: Swap some builds – to barracks, cats, a worker, and a settler. Tenochtitlan switches to granary as prebuild for an aquaduct. Leave one reg sword to complete, for lack of a better option. Sword walks near Incan galley. Horses wait.
    IBT: Incan sword dies attacking our spear, 2 Mongol horses appear.
    Turn 1: Settlers move along, attackers mass in/near Vilcas.
    IBT: Horses move toward Edo, archer appears, Incan settler pair appears.
    Turn 2: Bomb and kill horses, move stack northward.
    IBT: Archer advances, 2nd appears.
    Turn 3: Bomb and kill archer, get an MGL. Make a sword army. Start reorganizing.
    IBT: Archer, settler pair, spearman advance, sword appears.
    Turn 4: Bomb and kill archer, bomb spear but miss. Sword army moves out of Vilcas.
    IBT: 4 swords and an archer show up. Everyone else advances.
    Turn 5: Build Tamuin by fish/whale by Vilcas. Army kills settler pair, covers units.
    IBT: Learn Construction. 3 more swords show up.
    Turn 6: Bomb sword, get 1 hit. Horse kills archer, promotes. Two horses retreat from spear.
    IBT: Two swords show up, one retreats, others advance. Mongol horse shows up. Two aquaducts complete.
    Turn 7: Army kills sword. Horse kills horse, sees 2 more. E sword kills sword.
    IBT: Sword kills horse, lots of sword movement but no other attacks.
    Turn 8: Heal, move units.
    IBT: Swords and horses advance, kill spear and horse.
    Turn 9: Sword army kills Chasquis scout, sword, 9/13. Regroup. Cat pings spear at Hovd, sword dies and spear promotes, so I stop the attack.
    IBT: Swords don't attack, horses move toward Edo, archer lands near Edo. Learn writing, start map making, due in 6 at +4 gpt.
    Turn 10: Sword kills archer near Edo, promotes. Cats ping both horses near Vilcas, horses kill them. Army kills sword 6/13, moves to mountain to block sword advance. Retreat from Hovd. Build Cempoala.
     

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  4. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Didn't dl the save, but sounds like good work :) . Crazy that fighting is still so heavy at vilcas
     
  5. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    Yeah, I'm surprised too. I thought we'd already dealt with the main doomstacks way back, but apparently not. Good work holding the line, @CKS :thumbsup:

    (We could really do with knocking out at least the Inca, toot sweet -- assuming we are still only at war with the Incas and Mongols...?)

    I have DL'd the save, but we will be away over the coming long weekend. Although I can move the save over to our old laptop and take it with me, (apart from this evening, which is free) I'm not sure how much time I will have to play over the next couple of days. The lappie's also still running WinXP, so I don't take it online anymore (and especially not over a rental apartment's WiFi!).

    Point is, even if I can get my set done, I likely would not be able to post any progress until next Tuesday/Wednesday at the earliest. If the team would rather move along faster than that, then I will need a swap.
     
  6. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    Great work @CKS - I didn't expect an AW game to be all out War on every turn. Surely something's got to give soon.

    I am in no hurry to take the save (work, work, work...) so I am happy to wait @tjs282 . It may actually give me some time to take a look at the save over the weekend and catch up properly on the marvellous progress everyone seems to be making.
     
  7. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    OK, will have a look and post thoughts tonight, and start playing on Saturday...
     
  8. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Nice progress! CKS, would you mind posting a screenshot of our kingdom?
     
  9. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    If their swords only cost 24 shields, they can 3-turn them a lot easier than us, maybe even 2-turn if they have fresh water. Plus, it seems like, we're way closer to their core than ours so transit time is minimal. Once we get some ships to lower our transit times to the front, we should be able to damage their production and start steamrolling again.
     
  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    Ask, and ye shall receive...
    Spoiler Known world in 350 AD (zoomed out, large image) :
    JAR02 Known World 350 AD.png
    I've had a look and it doesn't seem that I need to do much in the way of MM :thumbsup: ;)

    I assume Atzca is building a Temple to snag the Whales, since it's already gone over budget for a Harbour-prebuild, but isn't going to need a 'Duct for quite a while...?

    As for plans, I'm thinking: hold the line at Vilcas, ping/kill the Inca Swords, and then press forwards along the Mountains, with the Army anchoring our stack. Send Horses out westwards to take Anda if possible (it doesn't look like it's hooked up yet, so can only build Spears/Archers), and build (cash-rush?) a Settler out of it (Settler-abandon it?) to found a receiving (Harbor-)town at the end of the peninsula (will still be 4 tiles from Atzca, oh well).

    I'll leave the Cats/Spears behind in Vilcas for now, to ping any units landed behind (or dodging round) the main stack: they can catch up to the front later, after the Slaves have roaded the route...

    Hovd should also be capturable. But do we really want/need to keep it? It will need a Harbour to grow to any appreciable size...

    If I have a Jag available to do so, I'll try and kick off our GA.

    Maps will certainly come in on this set: do we still want to go for Lit next, or rather an obligatory tech, e.g. CoL?

    (Since the Indians have already built MoM, I'm pretttty sure we've missed the Philo-sling...! ;) )

    Will check replies (one way or another) before I start playing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  11. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Atzca was already building that temple before my set, and that was my reasoning: that it wanted the border expansion for the whales.

    How are we in the tech race? One option might be to wait on the requiredz until we meet the other continent so that we can 4-turn them (I haven't done any tech cost calcs to see if we want to do that). OTOH, if we're keeping up in tech, maybe we don't need Lit right away...

    Should we reopen the GLib discussion, it hasn't been built yet, right? Do we think the game will get to/past Cavs?
     
  12. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    The tribes we know only need currency to move into the middle ages. We are behind by CoL, Phil, and MM. Unless we can find some other tribes, its hard to tell for sure what the tech situation is. However, looking at the build dates on wonders built by unknown tribes, I think they are ahead of our continent.

    It was sure nice that the Mongols and Inca built the pyramids, the ToA, and HG for us.

    Glib hasn't been built, but I doubt it will still be available in 30 turns, nor do I really want to take Tzintzuntzen off of units while it builds it. I expect we'll get to cavs, but perhaps not past them.

    However, the Byzantines built the GLH in 430 BC and we haven't see them yet, so the other tribes may not be easily reachable until navigation. They have 5-move dromons that can start and end on sea tiles, so if they can't reach us, it won't be an easy crossing. We may need to focus on research once we have the Inca and Mongols tamed.
     
  13. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    If I/we do go for Lit next, we could/should probably switch it to a Lib(-prebuild, e.g. a Col for now), instead of a Temple.

    We don't need the Temple-happyface there right now, and we will need it even less once we find and steal the Incan Dyes-tile(s), and the ToA, and the HG! :drool:

    But assuming that Tenoch has Rank = 0, then Atzca has Rank = 5 (only 3 towns closer to Tenoch, and equidistant with Tex, which was founded first), so it's potentially got a lot of uncorrupted water-commerce for conversion into beakers, if we were to give it a Harbour (30 shields to us, and we'll want one there anway, for +1 water-FPT and veteran Galley-builds) and (later!) a Duct.

    (And frankly, apart from acting as a port for shipping units to NewAnda/ Ulanbataar, and later to those islands to the north of us, it won't be good for much else...)
     
  14. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about :crazyeye:
    Ranks?
    Cheers
     
  15. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    He's taking about corruption. In short, both the distance from the capital and the 'rank' for the town contribute the total corruption. Each town is ranked in order of distance from the capital, with the rank for the capital being 0. Towns that are the same distance are ranked in order of founding. Here's a link to an awesome article by alexman: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/everything-about-corruption-c3c-edition.76619/
     
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  16. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    X-posted with @jarred!, so I've spoiled my synopsis of Alexman's excellent article.
    Spoiler Bla bla bla :
    In addition to the 'Distance-corruption' which is a set factor, based on the corruption-level of the government (e.g. "Catastrophic" for Anarchy, vs. "Minimal" for Democracy) applied to all towns, and scaled according to absolute map-distance from the Palace (except under Communism, where it is a flat 25%, IIRC), every town also gets assigned a 'Rank', based first on distance from the Palace, and then by date of founding (tie-breaker for equidistant towns).

    The town's rank affects the level of "Rank-corruption" applied to that town. In conjunction with map size, difficulty level, and whether or not the FP has been built yet, there will be a break-point whereby the Rank-corruption rate increases sharply. We are playing on a Standard-size map, which has an 'Optimal City Number' (per Civ) of 20 — which in theory would give 20 towns with the lower rate of rank-corruption, but as difficulty increases, OCN is adjusted downwards accordingly (even at Chieftain level, Nopt = 95% of the OCN, i.e. 19 low-corruption towns on a Std-map); if I understood Alexman's article correctly (no guarantees!) I believe this 'adjusted OCN' is called 'Nopt'.

    Basically, if a town's Rank < Nopt, then the town gets the lower rank-corruption level, but if Rank > Nopt, it gets the higher level. This is why (with non-Communal govs), we can generally observe a relatively 'hard' border between productive 'core' towns (usually around 0-30% waste upon founding) and the more marginal 'semi-core' towns (waste usually >50% upon founding), which then shade very quickly to the nearly-irredeemable 'one-shield towns' on the fringes.

    We are playing at Emp, so our Civ's Nopt is around 16, and it would have been around 12 before we built the FP (which, BTW, becomes possible once you have built — or captured — at least half of your OCN for that map-size, i.e. 10 towns on a Std-map), i.e. any town with Rank > 16 will have noticeably higher corruption than towns with Rank < 16.
    Point is, Atzca (with Rank 5) is firmly a core town, and will continue to be so even after we capture Anda and Ulan, so we 'should' improve it accordingly...
     
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  17. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    nOPT is the 'optimal city number' for a specific town. The calculation includes nI, which is the number of anti-corruption buildings in a town, so you could have towns with several different values, based on which, if any, anti-corruption buildings you have built there.
     
  18. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    I had a read of that link and it seems fairly complicated to understand all of it, but I got the general gist of it. Thanks.

    Technical Issue......
    I loaded up the Save yesterday and my computer crashed at some point while I was doing other stuff, but the game was still running. I haven't been able to get C3C running again through Steam since. Or to be more accurate, I try to run the game and Steam thinks I'm running it, but nothing is happening All Local Files validated, already done an Uninstall / re-install..... Any bright ideas?

    EDIT : OK it's working...
     
  19. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    It's more important to understand what contributes to corruption (or ameliorates it) than to know the calcs themselves, unless you're playing at a very high level (like HoF histos) where every penny counts. And, over 540 turns, the shield cost of the buildings is offset by the shield gain from lower corruption. Over short time spans, the boost might not be worth the expenditure, on a case by case basis.
     
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  20. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    Here we are, all packaged up neatly...
    Spoiler Turnlog 350-400 AD :
    T 0, 350 AD
    Atzca swiched to Col (prebuild for Lib)
    Tenoch MM'd for more FPT (shield-overrun can't be helped, but we'll have 10SPT next turn...)
    Excess SPT shared out to Teo, Calix, Tlat
    MM around Tzintz as well, for more CPT, less SPT (can't get the Sword in 1T, so don't need the shields)
    SCI%increased to 60% for Maps in 6T, -2GPT (Treasury = 57g)
    IBT
    3 Inca Swords onto Incense (Horse appears near Anda)
    3 Mongol Archers advance into view

    Tenoch, Calix --> Horsemen
    Tlat --> Spear (for MP, and in prep for Duct/Pop7)
    Edo --> Jag
    Curragh west of New Osaka sinks

    T 1, 360 AD
    Northern (1/4) Curragh continues mapping island coastline NE of Incaland
    Cats bomb 1 Sword, miss the others. I'll wait until they come down from the Hill before I attack
    Workers on Tamuin's Hill begin road (2T), others moved away from incoming Swords
    Horse + Sword arrive in Tzintz, enabling full employment
    MM around Tenoch for (more) efficient builds (Pop6 + full Gran + Settler in 2T from Teo, Duct in 2T in Tex)
    Send the new Horses south, but keep the rSword in Calix for home defence
    Kyoto sends Spear to Xochi, so Xochi' s Spear-build --> Jag
    IBT
    Injured Sword retreats, healthy ones move onto Plains (1 ZoC'd)

    Tzintz --> Sword
    Tula --> Rax (chop-shields will arrive soon)

    T 2, 370 AD
    Both Cats miss the Swords!
    vHorse dies redlining vSword, eSword kills 3/4 Sword, vHorse tramples 1/4 Sword, returns to Vilcas
    Inca rHorse (under Spear+Sword, on Incense Hill) threatens Tamuin and its Workers: 3 v+eSpears sent from Vilcas to reinforce/guard them
    vHorse tramples Mongol rArcher, promotes (4/5), returns to Vilcas
    IBT
    Inca Horse pillages Incense and runs away
    Sword kills Vilcas' remaining vSpear

    New Osaka --> Horse
    Teo --> Settler
    Tex --> Spear (for MP at Pop7)
    Xochi --> Horse

    T 3, 380 AD
    Cats knock 1 HP off vSpear near Vilcas
    Army cuts down healthy v+eSwords (10/13 HP) on Incense Hill, leaving 2/4 Sword exposed, but healthy eSword + e*Archer both die bringing Incan to 2/5 :mad:
    4/5 Sword and 4/5 Horse redline vs Mongol rArchers on Plains, 3/4 Horse finishes off the second and returns to Vilcas
    2 vSwords kill injured vSpear (1 dead, 1 promoted) to clear the way, allowing r+eSpears to return to Vilcas' defence (vSpear guards 4/5 Spear-killer)
    Hovd bombed to no effect, eHorse + vSword stay put
    IBT
    All Incan forces retreat north/west from Vilcas!
    I think they may just have DoW'd the Mongols...?

    Tenoch, Tlat --> Horse
    Tzintz riots after MPs move north -- careless of me

    T 4, 390 AD
    Army kills 2/5 Sword, moves to Hill
    vSpear to block Mountain between Vilcas and Tamuin
    Hopefully this will force enemies to bypass Vilcas to the east, instead of the west
    3 Cats in Vilcas take only 1 HP from vSword on Mountain
    I may have hit auto-bomb by mistake: Hovd's top defender is now an rSpear...? Cat 'woken' to cancel orders
    1st Jag arrives in Vilcas, but if he attacks the nearby Incan rArcher and wins, he can't retreat. So I'll wait a little longer for our GA...
    vHorse kills Archer instead, and promotes (3/5)
    SCI% to 40% for Maps still in 3T, but +8 GPT (Treasury = 45g)
    IBT
    2 more Incan Swords arrive near Vilcas, and Mongol Galley approaches Edo

    Tlax --> Horse
    Teayo --> Rax

    T 5, 400 AD
    3 vHorses diverted to block landings near Edo
    Vilcas Cats redline nearby vSword, eHorse administers deathblow
    Finally, Mountain north of Vilcas is finally free of units: 4 v+eSwords + vJag + eSpear begin the trek north
    IBT
    Mongol Galley drops off 1 Horse, Archer departs from Hovd
    Yet more Inca appear near our stack

    Kyoto, Malin, --> Horse
    Edo, Tula --> Spear
    Vilcas --> Sword
    Spoiler Turnlog 400-450 AD :
    T 6, 410 AD
    Cat bombs Hovd's rArcher, but eHorse dies failing to kill him
    Cats in Vilcas redline incoming rSword, eHorse runs him down (4/5)
    vHorse kills landed vHorse, promoted (4/5)
    Spears shuffled around Vilcas, to put vet in town and on Mountain 1N, reg goes SW to Tamuin's Mountain
    SCI% to 20% to finish Maps, +24 GPT
    IBT
    2 Incan vSwords attack vSpear on Mountain (1st dies, 2nd kills Spear), rSpear arrives on Vilcas' Plains

    We learn Maps --> Lit (6T at SCI% = 50%, -11 gpt, Treas. = 85g); Lit is the 2nd most expensive tech we can learn, so it's likely still not well known
    Tenoch --> HE ideally as prebuild for GLib: with a GA, we can do it in 20T, and even if we lose the race to GLib, HE (= more MGLs) is not a bad thing...
    Calix --> Sword
    Tzintz --> Harbour

    T 7, 420 AD
    Switch Xochi, Tzint, Tamuin to building Harbours, other core Rax-towns build Swords
    Cats redline rSpear near Vilcas, eHorse finishes him -- just (last shot misses 2/4 Sword on Mountain)
    vSword kills Archer near Anda, promoted (5/5), stack joins him -- and there are yet more Inca Swords incoming...
    IBT
    Injured Inca runs north, to the safety of his allies

    Tenoch riots!
    New Osaka --> Harbour

    T 8, 430 AD
    vJag attacks rArcher near Anda... and our GA begins!
    vJag dies trying to dislodge Incan rHorse fortified on the Mountain NNW of Vilcas, ever since it pillaged the Incense (which will re-hook this IBT)
    IBT
    Incan units turn west, to defend Anda. They will be too late...
    2 rArchers leave Hovd

    Teo,Tlat --> Harbour
    Teayo --> Horse

    T 9, 440 AD
    Army kills irritating Mountain-Horse
    Swords kill 2 Spears + Archer in Anda, and the town (+2g, + Slave) is ours --> Worker (10T until resistance is quelled)
    2 more eSwords march in, eSpear fortifies outside to protect the 2 victorious Swords, Slave sent to chop the westernmost Forest
    Cat bombs, Sword and Horse kill both Mongol Archers near Hovd
    Lit now in 2T!
    IBT
    eSpear fights off 1st vSword, vSword fends off vArcher, eSpear dies valiantly to 2nd vSword -- our Swords redlined, but will be saved by the Army

    Kyoto, --> Horse
    Xochi, Tzint --> Galley
    Malin, Tula --> Sword

    T 10, 450 AD
    eSwords evac from Anda, 2/4 Jag stays as MP (can't rush Worker yet)
    Army covers eSwords + injured Swords
    eHorses head north to assist in Anda's defence
    GAME SAVED
    Handover:

    We are 3T into our GA (it will end in 630 AD).

    I would suggest we use GA-shields from more marginal towns to continue to build more land-units, while we get infrastructure up in the core, then put the core (back) on 2T-Swords + Galleys. I have put up a few Harbours already, and 2 more will complete this IBT (all in towns with >1 Coast tile in the BFC!). I've also left several coastal towns building Colosseums, which should be switched to Libs when Lit comes in next turn, to pop borders and free up land tiles for landlocked towns -- especially Tenochtitlan!

    Tenoch is building HE (would complete in 8T at the current 20 SPT), and so the next player will need to decide (in consultation with the team!) whether we want to switch that to GLib (no-one has built it yet). If Tenoch is pumped up to Pop10-12 (will need more LUX%?) and uses all the shield-richest tiles in its BFC, with the GA-shields, I estimate we could get to 25 SPT, and finish GLib in another 13-14T. If we decide to go for it, we can reduce SCI% to zero after Lit is in (though I would still build those few strategic Libs for border-expansions now, and for when the GLib expires later). With the GLib, we could also be less concerned about meeting some/all of the 4 remaining Civs (Ottos, Indians, Byzzies, Dutch), because they are likely all more advanced than we are, so will bring us up to speed quickly. Otherwise, either keep on with HE, or convert the current build to a Lib before building mooooar Swords.

    We're down to 3 Jungle-tiles in our core: 1 of those will clear this IBT, and the road on the last section will also complete (can then be cleared in 3T with the 8 then-free Workers). Some native Workers could then pump up Ducted/ Pop7+ towns (e.g. Tenoch!), while the rest finish the Grass-mining jobs (and Tlaxcala's 2nd Plains). Further south, once Tlaxcala's Harbour is done, I would suggest selling the Rax and switching it to building Galleys (though it could also use a Lib and a Duct at some point as well). New Osaka is stalled at Pop3: it cannot grow bigger without a border-pop (from a Lib?) and a Harbour to boost all the Coast-tiles to 2 FPT, so I have left it building vSwords for now. The next player may want to switch to Horses/infrastructure.

    Oh yeah, the wars... Despite some losses, these are going pretty well now (going back through the log, I counted 10 Aztec casualties, against 20 Incan (mostly Swords) + 6 Mongol (mostly Archers): not a great ratio, but not disastrous either). The Mongols are pretty gassed, I think: apart from the occasional Archer (though they do also have Horsemen), I didn't see much from them during my set. I suspect they might also be at war with the Inca, for what that's worth. Unfortunately, we can't reach the Mongol core easily. So I would say, concentrate on taking more territory from the Inca, and don't worry too much about Khan -- but do keep some (fast) attackers in the vicinity of Hovd/Edo, to take care of any landings.

    (NB the Swords currently building in Tula and Malin are intended for attacking Hovd, but could be switched to Horses, if preferred.)

    With the capture of Anda, I have pushed our front a little further northwards. Once the resistance is quelled, the current Worker-build could be cash-rushed, then a chop (already in progress) plus the Jag-disband plus another cash-rush can Settler-abandon it, to refound on the (cleared) western end of the peninsula. We should be able to start shipping Swords over the Atzca Straits within the next 4-5 turns (Galley-builds are already queued in the core). The Inca units nearby will likely try and retake Anda over the next couple of turns, but they will have to bypass our Army + eSwords + eHorses to do it. They should be easy to kill on the flat, and then the stack can heal and move W/N towards the Incan Wines-Town.

    In the meantime, there is a stack of Slaves mining the Plains near Vilcas (will finish this IBT), and a Settler in Vilcas (he's walked a long way, because I didn't think it was worth founding another near-useless Plains-town between Teo and Tzintz, and I didn't want to crowd Edo and Tamuin). Assuming the Mountains remain sufficiently free of Incan infestation (Anda, with its lone Jag-defender, should be a more tempting target than Vilcas), I suggest splitting the Slave-stack to road up the coastal Plains on both east and west, and then sending the Settler + Spear (built out of Vilcas) + Cats to found on the Hill south of the Inca Wines. This will close our borders across the neck of the Mountain-range, and (eventually) allow us to bring irrigation down to Tzintzuntzen and ex-Japan.

    Save is below. Screenshots can be supplied on request, but the map hasn't changed much since the last one (apart from having fewer pink units on it!).
     

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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019

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