Jarcast's Nan Madol for VP

[KlHannibal2]

Yeah perhaps remove the airlift ability. The Civ’s kit is strong enough as it is and that ability can be easily overpowered. The bonus yields the 2 UB grant to surrounding terrain are nice to preserve


I don’t know a great deal about the Pohnpei civilization. I should have elaborated on the great admiral over great general as it was purely a gameplay recommendation. I don’t know what your design intent is but you have a number of places that the Civ gets great general points for free (from the improvements and from each zoo built). Not knowing much about the Pohnpei civilization those bonus GG points feel like those are artificial additions designed to grant the Civ access to a unique component. So I thought a great admiral would be a better fit purely on the basis that the Civ might generate more great admirals organically. If the choice of great general as a unique unit is intended to reflect the martial theme of the civilization then that’s fine.

I think the coral bonus is fine even if its RNG whether you have it in a given game or not. You have a minimum of N+1 atolls for your cities once the harbours are online so it doesn’t feel like the Civ is at the mercy of map spawn

A general is more in line with histroy while an admiral more with gameplay. How about giving them an admiral who also boosts land units, but can't disembark? They could also have no access to generals as a slight malus.

 

[KlHannibal2]

It would be a pity to remove the airlift. It is very cool and unique and fitting. What about limiting it to 1 unit per turn on empire?

 

[Urzamax]

I agree on removing the airlift, faster embarked movement feels more appropriate anyway (since as you mentioned, Nan Madol wasn't really a Thalassocracy per-se, and pre-flight airlifting honestly feels more like magic than anything else).
I also think the coral bonus is a fine bit of flavor. It definitely makes the rare coral start way more powerful than pretty much anything else, but the civ is by no means weak without it, so I reckon it's fine and also gives you extra incentive to settle in certain areas. If you want to remove/reduce/spread out the impact of the coral bonus by buffing other sea resources, then that's also fine and would definitely serve to smooth out their power curve.

 

[jarcast2]

I did a playtest to check the new Kepidau mechanics and the reported bugs.

In the following picture there's the Atoll created by the GG Nahnken.
You can see that although the graphics do not appear (they appear with a game reload, though) the plot is correctly labeled as an Atoll and receive the UA bonus.

Spoiler :

While the Atoll created by Kepidau works normally and is visible.
The reason why this one is visible is because there is a dummy improvement with Atoll graphics.

Spoiler :

So in the end it may be a conflict with another mod.
For clarity, here's the list of mods I enabled for the playtest:

Spoiler List of Mods :

(1) Community Patch
(2) Vox Populi
(3a) VP - EUI Compatibility Files
(4a) Promotion Icons for VP
(4b) UI - Promotion Tree for VP
Community Events (v 8)
Vox Populi's Bare Necessities (v9)
Even More Resources for Vox Populi (v 10)
Better Lakes for Vox Populi (v 2.5)
More Wonders for VP
Enlightenment Era (Vox Populi) (v 8)
City-States Leaders for VP
Infixo's Enhanced Naval Warfare for Vox Populi (v 2.1)
UI - Improved City View (v 17)
UI - Trade Opportunities for VP
Unit Scaling and Formation for VP (v 12)
USnF for VP Custom Civilizations (v 7)
Pontoon Bridges for VP (v 2)
Wonder Planner For VP
Religion - Permanent Pantheons (v 1)
super-settler (v 1)
Worker Mountaineering (v 2)
Reforestation for VP v.5
Convert Caravans and Cargo Ships
Vern's Upgrade All Units Button In Military Overview (v 1)
Jarcast's Some More City States Leaders for VP (v 3)
Jarcast's Clock Tower Building (v 1)

Jarcast & pineappledan's Hittites for VP (v 2)
Jarcast's Duchy of Amalfi for VP (v 4)
Jarcast's Nan Madol (VP) (v 2)
Jarcast's The Etruscans for VP (v 2)
Colonialist Legacies' - Phillipine Republic for VP (V12)
Colonialist Legacies' Canadian Dominion for VP (V25)
Colonialist Legacies' Inuit for VP (v19)
Colonialist Legacies' Tlingit for VP 19
DMS' Corsica (Pasquale Paoli) for VP (V13)
GH's Ainu People - Shakushain for VP (v.15)
GH's Scotland - Robert I Bruce for VP (v.16)
Hinin's Berbers for VP (v3)
Hinin's Hisatsinom for VP fix3.0 (v5)
InkAxis' Kushan Empire for VP (v 2.5)
JFD's Norway (Haakon IV) for VP (v.4)
JFD's Papal States (Pius IX) for Vox Populi (v 9)
JFD-US-DMS-THP-GH's Ireland for VP (v.5)
LS's Viet Nam for VP
MC and LITE's Nubia for VP (v19)
MC's Greece and Macedon Split for VP (v15)
pineappledan's Cambodia for VP (v16)
Pineappledan's Chola for Vox Populi (v 8)
pineappledan's Phoenician Civilization for Vox Populi (v 5)
Tomatekh's Benin for VP (v.5)
Tomatekh's Kyivan Rus' (Yaroslav the Wise) for VP (v.2)
Tomatekh's Sumer (VP) (v 24)
Tomatekh's Timurids for VP (v 15)

Alternative Civilization Icons (v 2)
Artisanix's Neolithic Wonders
framedarchitecture's National Wonder Collection (v 3)
Hazel's Map Labels (v 6)
InGame Editor+ (v 46)
JFD's Cultural Diversity - (1) (Core) (v 16)
Machiavelli's Cities of Marble (BNW) (v 6)
Quick Turns (v 10)
Really Advanced Setup (v 15)
robk's InfoAddict
Sukritact's Civ VI Style City Names (v 1)
Tomatekh's Historical Religions Complete (BNW or GK) (v 31)
Wonder Race (v 7)

Update is online (both direct and Steam).
Airlift has been substituted with the new ability you can find in the updated Kepidau description.
However for those who prefer the airlift ability I added a code switch, that is in the mod folder you can find the "UserSettings.sql", open it with notepad and change the number from 0 to 1 to have the airlift instead of the new ability.

Spoiler Kepidau ability Switch :

INSERT INTO COMMUNITY
        (Type,                                Value)
VALUES    ('JAR_NANMADOL_KEPIDAU_AIRLIFT',    0);
-- Change Value to 1 for Kepidau to have Airlift ability instead of embarked movement bonus

Edit: forgot to answer here

What about limiting it to 1 unit per turn on empire?

Unfortunately airlift is hardcoded so I cannot modify it in that way. It's either keep it or remove it.

 

[looorg]

In the end I followed your advice.

Update is online:
- Civ now starts with an Atoll near the capital if there is none within 3 tiles.
- Atoll given by Kepidau is now visible.
- Fixed notification icon when ships claim a sea luxury.

The capital atoll doesn't appear to be working correctly. It spawns as graphics but the tile isn't an atoll, according to IGE. And it doesn't provide yields as an atoll.

 

[Urzamax]

Huh, that's weird, it works fine for me ^

 

[gwennog]

Same for me too.

 

[looorg]

Same for me too.
View attachment 664783

I assume those are spawn atolls, as in there are no other atolls withing 3 tiles of the capital? And not normal map atolls? There are no other atolls within 3 tiles of my capital so that was a spawn atoll as per the notes. You improved your atoll with a fishing boat, I guess that is the thing you can build on them then. Perhaps that will trigger it to go full atoll? Did it give yields before you improved it? Beyond some minor food stuffs?

Also if that had been a real Atoll it would have said "Atoll, Coast" on the coast line, that it's fish with an atoll on it just seems weird. I guess there was no other tile for it to spawn in? There was a fish on that tile and you put down the capital and it spawned the atoll graphics on top of the fish? In some regard that tooltip just opens more questions. So isn't that just an improved fish tile with some atoll graphics on top it? I guess not since it has culture and golden age points. It's weird non the less.

I played a few more turns, I changed my atoll to being an atoll with IGE. So it now says Atoll Coast in the tooltip. I also have the god of the sea pantheon.

 

[KlHannibal2]

The capital atoll doesn't appear to be working correctly. It spawns as graphics but the tile isn't an atoll, according to IGE. And it doesn't provide yields as an atoll.

View attachment 664780

Same happened to me, also when using the general.

 

[jarcast2]

I assume those are spawn atolls, as in there are no other atolls withing 3 tiles of the capital? And not normal map atolls? There are no other atolls within 3 tiles of my capital so that was a spawn atoll as per the notes. You improved your atoll with a fishing boat, I guess that is the thing you can build on them then. Perhaps that will trigger it to go full atoll? Did it give yields before you improved it? Beyond some minor food stuffs?

Also if that had been a real Atoll it would have said "Atoll, Coast" on the coast line, that it's fish with an atoll on it just seems weird. I guess there was no other tile for it to spawn in? There was a fish on that tile and you put down the capital and it spawned the atoll graphics on top of the fish? In some regard that tooltip just opens more questions. So isn't that just an improved fish tile with some atoll graphics on top it? I guess not since it has culture and golden age points. It's weird non the less.

I played a few more turns, I changed my atoll to being an atoll with IGE. So it now says Atoll Coast in the tooltip. I also have the god of the sea pantheon.

View attachment 664786View attachment 664787

The main thing is that when you change map features after map creation (like atoll spawn) the changes will graphically come into effect after reloading the game.
As IGE captures the map that loaded after you start/reload a game, it will not capture successive changes so in IGE view the atoll tile may appear still as empty even though it is there and the UA works as intended.
Also you cannot build Fishing Boats on Atolls, the tooltip in gwennog's picture clearly refers to another tile especially because I coded the atoll to be spawn on empty resourceless and featureless (other atolls, sea natural wonders) tiles.
See my post above for more clarifications.

 

[looorg]

The main thing is that when you change map features after map creation (like atoll spawn) the changes will graphically come into effect after reloading the game.
As IGE captures the map that loaded after you start/reload a game, it will not capture successive changes so in IGE view the atoll tile may appear still as empty even though it is there and the UA works as intended.
Also you cannot build Fishing Boats on Atolls, the tooltip in gwennog's picture clearly refers to another tile especially because I coded the atoll to be spawn on empty resourceless and featureless (other atolls, sea natural wonders) tiles.
See my post above for more clarifications.

Interesting. I was a bit confused about the first sentence in Isokelekels description -- Workers may build on Atolls. I couldn't get my workers do anything on Atolls but the work boats can build "fishing boats" on them (+1 hammer, +1 faith). But I think that bonus comes from the God of the Sea pantheon. So perhaps I have wasted a lot of gold and resources to put down work boats, or I would have if I had not had God of the Sea. But still I have been able to put work boats on Atolls.

The thing that I perhaps find a bit odd is that the spawned Atoll said nothing but just showed the graphics. But one that I created with a Nahnken (Great general) says "Improvement Atoll" but not "Atoll Coast". So it seems somehow different.

Out of curiosity then what are the workers supposed to be able to build on the Atolls? Normal improvement? Farms and villages and things?

Edit: Now, many turns after I tried last, it works to bring a worker there to build any great person improvement on them, but only on the initial one that spawned -- that I had put a fishing boat on and made into an Atoll with IGE, but not the one I created next to it with the Nahnken, there the worker can't do anything ... This is doing my head in really. The Atoll that the Nahnek created can't have a fishing boat, can't be improved by the worker and it has very low yields (no Atoll yields at all). But the one I fixed with IGE can have all the things it's supposed to have I guess (plus the weird fishing boat thing that probably comes from God of the Sea).

 

[AndreyK]

You have to discover Masonry tech before your workers are able to build on atolls. My workers are working on 2 atolls already one is spawned and one created by GG.
Jarcast2, I'm trying this civ and got very lucky to have Great Barrier Reef close, spent 4 turns to move my settler to a great spot. I don't understand properly - Are workers suppose to be able to build GPTI on Reef? My workers are not able to enter on it.

 

[jarcast2]

UA - Tiahk En Sapw
Workers may build on Atolls Great People Improvements that yield +1 Great General point and +10% Production toward Wonders.
Reefs, Atolls and Coral provide +2 Culture, +2 Golden Age points, +50% Defense and claim adjacent tiles.
During Golden Ages, Naval Units may claim neutral Luxury Resources once, granting Food and Production in the Capital.

Reading the civ description provides all needed information.
And yes Masonry tech is needed before being able to build GPTI on Atolls (and only on those features).
EDIT: I will update the UA text in game to clarify it.

As to the issue of Fishing Boats on Atolls I found out it is because of this bit in the main Vox Populi code (MODS\(2) Vox Populi\Balance Changes\Terrain\ImprovementChanges.sql):

INSERT INTO Improvement_ValidFeatures
    (ImprovementType, FeatureType)
VALUES
    ('IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS', 'FEATURE_ATOLL'),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS', 'FEATURE_REEF'),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS', 'FEATURE_ICE'),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL', 'FEATURE_JUNGLE');

So basically according to it you could create Fishing Boats not only on Atoll but also on Reefs and Ice.

That code interacts with the one of Nan Madol UA and, in particular, with this line

UPDATE Features SET NoImprovement=0 WHERE Type ='FEATURE_ATOLL';

that allows workers to construct GPTI on Atolls.
Consequently now Fishing Boats can be built on Atolls (in my test the improvement has no graphics and gives no additional yields).
If you repeat that code also for FEATURE_REEF and FEATURE_ICE you could build fishing boats also on them.

To solve the issue I could delete the 'Improvement_ValidFeatures' code above but given it's in the main VP code I would like to ask first why is there such a thing. @Recursive (or any dev who could clarify)

The thing that I perhaps find a bit odd is that the spawned Atoll said nothing but just showed the graphics. But one that I created with a Nahnken (Great general) says "Improvement Atoll" but not "Atoll Coast". So it seems somehow different.

Can you give me the list of the mods you enabled? I'm sure it doesn't depend on just my mod per se because with just Vox Populi and the Nan Madol civ it works flawlessly.

 

[CromulentRomulan]

Those atoll issues are the same as I encountered. I think the common additional factor may be IGE. @gwennog & @Urzamax can you recall if you were playing the game with IGE enabled?

 

[jarcast2]

Those atoll issues are the same as I encountered. I think the common additional factor may be IGE. @gwennog & @Urzamax can you recall if you were playing the game with IGE enabled?

I play with IGE+ v46 by NCore and have none of those problems.

 

[jarcast2]

Update online.

Changelog:
- fixed UA text to include Masonry tech requirement for GPTI on Atolls.
- solved conflict with main VP code that allowed Fishing Boats to be built on Atolls.

From now on I won't address anymore complaints about atolls bug because I explained and proved more than once that the mod works as intended even with many commonly used VP modmods enabled.
If it doesn't work it's not because of my mod but because of conflict with other mods I cannot directly address.

 

[CromulentRomulan]

I play with IGE+ v46 by NCore and have none of those problems.


View attachment 664805

Very odd. The main thing is that the atolls work as intended, I agree that its some weird mod interaction causing the bug for me and others. My next best guess is some interaction between the communitu script and more resources mod, but I'd need the other folks who encountered the bug to confirm if they were using the latter mod.
Love the colour scheme for Nan Madol btw

 

[jarcast2]

My next best guess is some interaction between the communitu script and more resources mod, but I'd need the other folks who encountered the bug to confirm if they were using the latter mod.

I always use Communitu_79a featured in the last VP version and Even More Resources for Vox Populi (v 10) so it's not that.
In my post above I list all the mods I used to test for atoll bugs and they are fine.
If you give me the list of the mods you use when the bug happens I can check where it can be the problem.

Love the colour scheme for Nan Madol btw

Thanks

 

[looorg]

Can you give me the list of the mods you enabled? I'm sure it doesn't depend on just my mod per se because with just Vox Populi and the Nan Madol civ it works flawlessly.

So basically according to it you could create Fishing Boats not only on Atoll but also on Reefs and Ice.

(over) More Unique Components for VP (v85)
Improved City View (v17)
Reworked Top Panel (v3)
InGame Editor+ (v46)
+ the VP and Madol civ.

That said. All the other things work fine. The interactions with the Atolls work if I just use IGE to change them to Atolls. It's been fun so far, it's very different in that regard in how I place my cities and so on -- I sent settlers to the other side of the world to an island that had four atolls etc. Good fun overall.

Perhaps things got weird due to God of the Sea, since I apparently could place fishing boats on the Atolls. I don't know. The fishing boat gets replaced tho if I later use a worker to build on the great person buildings. As far as I can tell the fishing boats does nothing to the tile, except noting in the tooltip that is has the fishing boat improvement. The extra yields I got from the fishing boats was all from God of the Sea. The boat doesn't give anything beyond that.

 

[Valliand]

(over) More Unique Components for VP (v85)
Improved City View (v17)
Reworked Top Panel (v3)
InGame Editor+ (v46)
+ the VP and Madol civ.

That said. All the other things work fine. The interactions with the Atolls work if I just use IGE to change them to Atolls. It's been fun so far, it's very different in that regard in how I place my cities and so on -- I sent settlers to the other side of the world to an island that had four atolls etc. Good fun overall.

Perhaps things got weird due to God of the Sea, since I apparently could place fishing boats on the Atolls. I don't know. The fishing boat gets replaced tho if I later use a worker to build on the great person buildings. As far as I can tell the fishing boats does nothing to the tile, except noting in the tooltip that is has the fishing boat improvement. The extra yields I got from the fishing boats was all from God of the Sea. The boat doesn't give anything beyond that.

Have you tried it without Improved City View? I don‘t play with that mod but with many others and i dont have issues with the atoll