[RD] JK Rowling and Explicit Transphobia

[Gorbles]

Going back a bit, as I missed some stuff:

That's a dishonest representation of the memo in question. Have you actually read it?

It was a completely fair interpretation in my opinion. You cannot determine how honest someone else is being of a reading of a third-part piece. You're obviously invested in said memo, so I'd be careful on handing out such labels. To presume people don't read the things they're criticising is also inherently an attack on their character, by the by.

This is why I tend not to engage, yeah? You go all technical on the definition of an ad hominem (and repeatedly allude to the forum rules, but always still regardless seem to actually reply), but you don't hold yourself to the same pedantry. This is your point of view, in essence. I'm trying to make you understand the dissonance. This isn't a gotcha, this is me attempting to explain why you get the reactions you do. You're here equivocating the theoretical harm done by "wrongthink" or some other such label as being of greater import than the real, ongoing harm to trans people.

When pressed, your argument was that you didn't see the link between someone offering their hateful opinions as a famous author vs. some random Internet troll. You didn't see the cause and effect. It has been repeatedly explained to you. This is why I have no time for your proxy defense of another poster's words. Your own arguments aren't sufficient, and I'd rather focus on them first and foremost for as constructive discussion as we can make.

 

[Yeekim]

I'm about to go to bed so I'll keep this brief but a few examples.

Thank you, I really appreciate the effort.
Precisely pointing out where her arguments are based on faulty claims is way more informative and constructive than shouting labels.
I mean, if the cited claims were true, her position would make a lot more of sense.

 

[REDY]

Where I got lost in Rowling and it seems emphatised by both sides (Rowling and trans users on forum). I dont know, what rapist would choose public bathroom to make his crime? And how he would be restricted by having opposite gender than sex on his ID? Are on west some bathroom guards checking if there is proper sex and gender? Is it real problem or just red herring to make problem with trans?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Is it real problem or just red herring to make problem with trans?

This.

There are bad transpeople, no doubt, but that doesn't justify denying the entirety of the transcommunity the right to use a toilet or changing room without fearing for their own safety because they're being forced to use their assigned gender at birth's respective space.

 

[Gorbles]

Thank you, I really appreciate the effort.
Precisely pointing out where her arguments are based on faulty claims is way more informative and constructive than shouting labels.
I mean, if the cited claims were true, her position would make a lot more of sense.

I don't see anybody shouting anything, here. I don't even understand how labels wouldn't be constructive - any acronyms or initialisms used have either been explained, or are literally 1 second on Google.

I don't get your last line, either. Of course if a claim is true, somebody's position predicated on that claim would make sense. That's a truism. The entire point of discussion is around the actual truth of those claims, and thus, the harm done by Rowling's position.

 

[REDY]

This.

There are bad transpeople, no doubt, but that doesn't justify denying the entirety of the transcommunity the right to use a toilet or changing room without fearing for their own safety because they're being forced to use their assigned gender at birth's respective space.

I have thought so. I am cis male and I have sometimes used bathroom for women because confusion/alcohol/nature calls. After reading Rowling I felt like I have made crime.

 

[Yeekim]

Of course if a claim is true, somebody's position predicated on that claim would make sense.

Not at all. People routinely disagree on what a proper policy response is even where basic facts of a situation are not under contention.

The entire point of discussion is around the actual truth of those claims, and thus, the harm done by Rowling's position.

So it's helpful to know which particular claims are wrong. I asked and I appreciate NinjaCow clarifying that for me.

 

[Gorbles]

Not at all. People routinely disagree on what a proper policy response is even where basic facts of a situation are not under contention.

That wasn't what was said. You said her position would make more sense if the things she based her position on were true. This is not the same as deciding on a proper policy response, or a single correct path to take.

I don't understand the need to even suggest there is a situation where her position would make sense, I guess.

 

[Yeekim]

I don't understand the need to even suggest there is a situation where her position would make sense, I guess.

Well, the thread started with allegations that Rowling is transphobic, bigoted and generally horrible person.
I went and read her post and could not initially see what the problem was: she seemed quite reasonable; I was rather getting the impression she is being unfairly maligned.
Pointing out where her premises are wrong was helpful in dispelling that notion. I would hope I am not unique in that regard.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Well, the thread started with allegations that Rowling is transphobic, bigoted and generally horrible person.
I went and read her post and could not initially see what the problem was: she seemed quite reasonable; I was rather getting the impression she is being unfairly maligned.
Pointing out where her premises are wrong was helpful in dispelling that notion. I would hope I am not unique in that regard.

I think that might be because you're not part of the group she's equating to sexual predators as a basis on which to deny you the ability to **** in the toilet of the gender you identify as.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think that might be because you're not part of the group she's equating to sexual predators as a basis on which to deny you the ability to **** in the toilet of the gender you identify as.

Difference between what you identify as and what society accepts.

If you have a penis it's going to be hard to convince people you're a female. Talking about the real world here.

Personally I don't care what bathroom people use, I've seen females in male bathrooms. Don't care if trans whatever use the bathrooms I'm in.

A lot of women not gonna like seeing trans women in a bathroom though. Not saying it's fair/right/wrong or whatever.

Women have been abused so some will be uncomfortable around transwomen and the bathrooms are a safe space. Others are outright bigots, some won't care.

 

[REDY]

I think that might be because you're not part of the group she's equating to sexual predators as a basis on which to deny you the ability to **** in the toilet of the gender you identify as.

Croez claimed same thing just from trans persective. That she is afraid of violence in the bathroom because her trans-gender.
Rowling said what is understandable from my perspective. I havent seen hate speech, just opinion based on her experiences and resources. "People who menstruate" is more dehumalisating than anything what Rowling said.
The things which are obvious to trans people are not obvious for people who have no experience... I am just talking by myself, not for Yeekim or anyone else.
I am not denying or confirming anything, I am just trying to understand. The thing that stranger will rape you in public bathroom and hes fine because he has proper gender seemed to me really absurd.

 

[Yeekim]

I think that might be because you're not part of the group she's equating to sexual predators as a basis on which to deny you the ability to **** in the toilet of the gender you identify as.

Well, I am part of the group she actually appears to be afraid of ("regular" men).
In fact, both you and her seem to be anxious for own safety because of past trauma.

Toilets might be less of an issue here due to relative privacy afforded by a cabin, but I see how women might be uncomfortable sharing a changing room with someone who says she is a transwoman but has undergone neither surgery or hormone therapy. And that's not necessarily because they are afraid of an assault.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Rowling said what is understandable from my perspective.

Then you fundamentally misunderstand the situation; JK is using the bigoted excuse and transphobic canard that a cisman in a dress could enter a female toilet or changing room to commit sexual acts of violence as a justification for being against and advocating against transpeople being able to use the spaces for their respective gender they are transitioning to.

 

[Zardnaar]

Then you fundamentally misunderstand the situation; JK is using the bigoted excuse and transphobic canard that a cisman in a dress could enter a female toilet or changing room to commit sexual acts of violence as a justification for being against and advocating against transpeople being able to use the spaces for their respective gender they are transitioning to.

Fearmongering for sure. To the casual observer though how do you tell the difference between a trans women and a man in drag?

Assuming the difference in appearance isn't to extreme.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Toilets might be less of an issue here due to relative privacy afforded by a cabin, but I see how women might be uncomfortable sharing a changing room with someone who says she is a transwoman but has undergone neither surgery or hormone therapy. And that's not necessarily because they are afraid of an assault.

Except getting surgery can be very difficult not just financially but also medically, the cost is immense and not always attainable, its simply not practical to deny transpeople access to theit respective gendered spaces because then you'd be in a position in which they might pass 100 percent except for their genitals.

Hormone therapy is tricky because it can be quite hard to access it depending on the country or state you live in, which again discriminates against transpeople.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Fearmongering for sure. To the casual observer though how do you tell the difference between a trans women and a man in drag?

Assuming the difference in appearance isn't to extreme.

Just so I understand you correctly; do you seriously believe a transwoman is going to present the same as a man in drag?

Think very carefully here, because the whole point of transitioning to a woman is to live it full time, not part of the time or temporarily and to also be read and seen as a woman, not a parody of one.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just so I understand you correctly; do you seriously believe a transwoman is going to present the same as a man in drag?

Think very carefully here, because the whole point of transitioning to a woman is to live it full time, not part of the time or temporarily and to also be read and seen as a woman, not a parody of one.

Depends some you can't really tell the difference though yes?

A lot of factors there? Makeup, build,hormones, clothings, surgery.,etc distance

Sometimes you can tell sometimes you can't, sometimes you can't tell they're trans.

Talking about average person in street.

 

[Yeekim]

I mean... it's not about being able to tell the difference... the difference is likely to be quite obvious.

It's about being able to successfully call him out on it, when he predictably goes: "How dare you second-guess my assumed gender you horrible, transphobic bigot? I'm totally fluid and I woke up feeling as a girl today! Now stop oppressing me!"

 

[REDY]

Then you fundamentally misunderstand the situation; JK is using the bigoted excuse and transphobic canard that a cisman in a dress could enter a female toilet or changing room to commit sexual acts of violence as a justification for being against and advocating against transpeople being able to use the spaces for their respective gender they are transitioning to.

This is where I felt off. I can understand that some people argue for more restriction of trans surgery and I understand why others argue that it should be soon as possible.
But the idea of man (or transman) who would want rape woman in female toilet and claim thats alright because hes proper gender was for me just absurd argument.
But again, whats happening in west right now is for me bizarre, I am maybe just missing point. Its too hard to understand it and I have actually studied gender studies just 10 years ago.