JOE-05 - The Crusades

[mice]

Well, a lot to digest from all that. Great report Cosmichail. Very insightful. I'm learning a great deal from this game.

It's a pity about the heated exchange, but it seems it's necessary in order to sort out this team. I admire people who speak their mind.

Back to the game. If we cant/shouldn't build a Hindu missionary, then we definitely can't build a Minaret. The Spiral would give us GPP for a prophet, and a lot of gold as we go along. Ankor Wat has gone to Hatty.

Without the second priest we certainly need Pacifism that is until the Prophet comes along, and probably NE. We might get another scientist too. As is, GP in 89 turns. With Pacifism, 44+9 for Philosophy , with NE 20 something + 10 or so to build it. This is risky because it puts us at less than 50% prophet chance.

We need a final decision from JoE on the Hindu preist, but I agree with Cosmichail that is goes against the spirit of the variant if not the rules on page 1.

Rince, Are you going to declare on Louis? If you do my advice would be to keep Tours. Also here is another spot that I think would be a good city. If we follow Cosmichail's irrigation plans then it could be irrigated from the north too. Good Prod or Commerce city.

Maybe settle it?. Others will have a view on this. It will steal the bananas from Freddy with a bit of culture.

 

[vra379971]

Well, there's another option...we've already got the Hindu Priest in Paris, and we can't get rid of it. So, we might as well use it. Let's assign two priests in Paris, and get our GP from there. Will give Rome time to grow anyhow.

Now...we're two turns from Theology. Which means Theocracy. And if we go there, Pacifsm is no longer an option. So yeah...

Now, one point I do agree with, is we need to put our glorious army to uze. As Hatty founded Tao though, we're going to need to move fast if we're going to get her before she builds the Wat.

Atp, I'd say let's take her out now with kama-cats, and research Engineering in the meantime to improve road movement and trebs. Hopefully, we can exhort a few techs off here if we beat her soundly enough.

And...ah, vicious arguments, glorious speeches...the glories of the Crusades!

 

[Rince]

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

Rince

 

[Cosmichail]

I was thinking too that we could manually research philo and try for Angkor Wat. I think it can be researched in 9 turns. Orleans needs to grow to work those mines. It may be ready to start building Angkor Wat by the time philo is finished. Lyons may be suitable too as there is a mine that the forest chop will aid in getting that done faster. Orleans may not be the place as it has GE points happening there so Lyons?? Lyons has good food and may be able to support 3 priests. I don't know if we have stone although I did notice the marble. (Taj Mahal??) Angkor does need stone and is 500 hammers (in the forum manual but have to check how much in the game due to game speed)
It'd take about 25 turns in Lyons or Orleans once some growth happens to work mines. That's be without stone and just guessing right now. We need to get the base hammer up to at least 25 to get wonder somewhat fast. If we stay in OR and build a forge there Orleans has the potential for 20 base hammers (at least another 4 or 5 pop to accomplish that) with 50% 30 base hammers speeding up the wonder.


On the other hand we could do this too. Put up two priests in Paris after temples are built. Paris has the food and pop to do it. Nice spot for the NE too perhaps. Once we reclaim that sugar we will have lots of food there and great GP farm/commerce city. (mini GP farm but two priests and NE oughta to the trick) This is without looking at the save to see what GPP points Paris has produced. Paris has not built any wonders so not likely any pollution there. Then rather than use Rome as GPriest producer put up two scientist so we can use them for bulbing future techs such as Education. This is why I feel Hatty has to be slowed. She will beat us to Liberalism easy and it would be nice to grab that too. Scientist can lightbulb most of it and part research so having GS's is helpful when science is weak. Our science is weak and would serve us better too to have scientists in Rome now.

Will check on the GPP for Paris and see how long it takes. If we could whip the NE in Paris by using overflow method if the penalty for whipping wonder applies then get that GPriest a bit faster.

Theology was needed too as mentioned by Jesus that we have to protect our cities from religion spread that was the idea too and of course the extra XP points. Freddy doesn't have it iirc and could trade from him Metal Casting which we sorely need. That would get us to Machinery which is a prerequisite for Engineering I believe. It will get us closer to optics too which we need to find our friend Mehmed.

Our finances have improved a lot btw and upon hitting enter one courthouse is done and Essen will be done in 2 turns after that.

EDIT: Angkor Wat is 750 hammers in game. We have no stone so that's going to be a slow build even in good production city. Paris otoh with two temples/two priest and NE would net us Great Priest in 23-25 turns. The next level of GPP is 300 and we could get up to 12 GPP points with two priests and NE in Paris. Only NE would take long there so we need help from the whip. We could for now mine that hill unless we want to cottage it but it'd be nice to have one production tile to speed up the NE.

 

[JesusOnEez]

Blimey...it's all been happening here.

Although we should be in Theocracy (remember, the variants state that's a PERMANENT change) as soon as possible. It's a bit late now, but there's nothing in the variants about us NOT being able to spread another religion about, although it'd go against the grain of the game, it would not go against the rules...use the Hindu priest for the benefit of the game, nothing more.

Basically, I'm all for building two Temples in Paris, running a couple of priests and getting the GP that way, as opposed to wasting a tonne of hammers on a build (Ankor Watt) that'll net us a tonne of Praets/Trebs...build the temples, run the priests max out production and build the NE...hopefully we won't pop a GA...

 

[mice]

Jesus, I thought you'd left us. It's good to see you rise again. (Easter joke)

The save I'm looking at is 1130 AD. Cosmichail's. In this save Hatty has Ankor Wat. That option is out.

The boss says we can get a priest, lets do it. Vra, why do you say Rome already has a Hindu priest? It has a christian priest. The second priest needs to come over by boat from Paris or Pisae. In Paris it can be whipped soon. The slowdown is gettting a galley to him in Pisae. Better to whip in Paris and he can jump on the galley transporting the GG.

Without Pacifism I guess we'll need the NE. If we get an artist or a scientist, our next best option will be to take Ankor off of Hatty. It's in Thebes.

Although we should be in Theocracy (remember, the variants state that's a PERMANENT change) as soon as possible. It's a bit late now,

It's not too late. We are 2 turns from Theocracy. If Rince swaps to it we are following the rules.

 

[Cosmichail]

About Angkor Wat I didn't notice that so she must have had a GE. That was fast as it was proposed to found Taoism with him. Now I admit I didn't check that and assumed from Vra's post so she must have discovered during my turn and then used GE.

So we had no hope in getting Angkor.

Without Pacifism I guess we'll need the NE. If we get an artist or a scientist, our next best option will be to take Ankor off of Hatty. It's in Thebes.

I like that good idea.

Mice I overlooked you mentioned that already about Angkor in a previouis post. Sorry I missed that as the debate was moot considering that. (Angkor has gone to Hatty).

We're not too far off from maces too although Praets have the same strength lacking the melee bonus so we could keep using them for a bit. I like the idea of trebs so tech path Machinery->engineering??and compass/optics.
(we need MC but Freddy has it and could trade theo for it hopefully)

We probably could trade for compass but I'd be reluctant to trade CS away just now. Hatty probably has that too and is teching way past us.

There isn't much left of Louis just need some garrison units to keep the advance going and closer to Hatty. Her trait will be a pain and we may loose cities at her border if we don't act fast. We will need more military and once we get Machinery put crossbow in the stack to protect Praets.

 

[vra379971]

It's a pity he hadn't left us Mice. We coulda had a free shirne ;p

 

[JesusOnEez]

There isn't much left of Louis just need some garrison units to keep the advance going and closer to Hatty. Her trait will be a pain and we may loose cities at her border if we don't act fast. We will need more military and once we get Machinery put crossbow in the stack to protect Praets.

Keep those Spears/Pikes coming as well as Hatty lurves the horsey units...maybe check she has Horses first though.

 

[Rince]

Ok, here are my turns. I'm a bit late since it took some time to integrate all your suggestions into a turnset. Hope I didn't mess up too much.

1130 Declare war on france and capture a worker near the newly discovered Besançon:

Our army heads out to Rheims, the pop 6 city in the southeast.

1136 Change production from Paris from Worker to Christian Temple since getting the Great Prophet is top priority. Production shift to military, Rome builds a settler.

1142 No counterattacks so far. Theology is in, we revolt to Theocracy (1 Turn) and research Construction. Our main army reaches Rheims. Spearman kills random Horse Archer.

1148 Still no attacks from Louis. He's waiting for judgement day as it seems. Bombard Rheims down to 0%. I see Fred with a settler heading for the free spot at Rome. We can't attack him right now, a border pop is far off. Cancel Open Borders? I don't feel like pissing him off ATM.

1154

Battle of Rheims:

Catapult kills Swordsman (was supposed to be suicidal but I won't complain)
Catapult kills Axeman
Praet (GG) kills Spearman

I raze Rheims reluctantly. Don't know what the consensus on keeping vs. razing is. Some of it's tiles will be used by the new city for which the settler is under way.

1160-1166 Mainly troop movements. Army is split in two to go east and west respectively. GG joins Orleans, which is a pop 5 city now, as a military instructor. Rome finishes settler, it heads to the spot Mice indicated earlier. Paris builds a missionary to christianize Essen.

1172 Bombardment of Chartres begins. I just noticed that the settler Fred sent did not go to the spot near Rome to settle there. Looks more like it took a galley to settle somewhere else.

1178

Battle of Chartres:

Praet kills Longbowman (!)
Praet kills Catapult

Don't have enough troops to take out the remaining Spear.


Battle of Avignon:

Bombardment to 8%
Praet (GG) kills Archer
Praet kills Archer

Razing Avignon, a no-brainer this time.

IBT: the Praet which took Avignon kills an attacking horse archer but dies to the second one.

1184

Metal casting is in, Machinery next.

Battle of Chartres (contd.):

Catapult dies to Axe (fresh reinforcement)
Praet kills Axe
Spear dies to Spear
Praet kills Spear

Also Chartres is razed.

Final analysis:

A indicates Army Group East, in pretty bad shape but under no threat. Must return to Paris.

B is Army Group West which suffered the attack from the Horse Archer (D) and consists of a few Cats and a single Praet (+GG). The praet is down to strength 4.4 but since they are in a forest, the horse archer shouldn't have a chance. I hope.

C is Army Group North which protects Paris from a counter-attack.

E is the proposed city spot and F is what remains of Rheims and which I think I should have kept instead of razed.

Louis is almost dead now. He should have no access to iron and horses. Our units need some rest now but Besançon could be attacked during the next turns since it's not well defended and fresh cats are under way.

Rooster:

Cosmichail
Rince - Just Played
JesusOnEez - Up next
Mice - On deck
Vra379971

Greetings,

Rince

 

[Cosmichail]

So Louis is almost toast. Nice work.

Looked at the save and a couple of things:

Paris has 4 red faces we could whip that temple.
We should also whip that theatre in Essen

Just wondering why Lyons is building forum. (did I do that?). No commerce there only 4 gold.

We are building a Praet in Orleans but no barracks. Wouldn't be better to get the full 5 XP instead of 2 XP?

About the GG he's in danger if he answers the defenders call. A barrage cat has a move left and could damage that HA enough to save our medic.

Also was wondering about Freddy for trading MC/ for theology. Was he being greedy again as I noticed we researched it manually.

Good luck Jesusoneez.....

Edit: I just realized we are in theocracy so we will get 4 xp from Orleans right now. With barracks 7 XP which I think (not sure have to check) will give us level 3 units.

 

[mice]

Good crusading Rince.
I'm not so confident about city placing. Is there another opinion about the proposed site? I agree Rince that Rhiems could have work afew cottages to pay for itself. We dont want Freddy down there. Does everyone aggree on keeping tours? Besacon in the balance.

We need a monestary in Paris to whip the Hindu priest to send to Rome to build a temple. At the moment we are on 89 turns to Prophet.

 

[Rince]

Somehow I totally forgot about the possibility of whipping and I agree that we should whip at least the temple and the theatre.

Besançon has quite a few desert and mountain tiles and also overlaps with Paris and Tours if we keep that one. So I would say raze it.

 

[mice]

Has anyone else noticed that this map looks a lot like Western Europe?

The French lands look a lot like France, they even have Germany to the east.

Substitute Hatty for Spain, and it looks a lot like Spain/Portugal too.

Our Roman land even looks a bit like Britain.

It's quite good for role play. If we control these lands and set off to destroy the heathens on another continent, it will be very similar to the crusaders setting off from Europe to conquer the middle East.

JesusOnEez. Do you have a plan to get our prophet? Hindu missionary to Rome>temple>priest seems like the best. Probably quicker than storming Thebes to get Ankor, although that suerly will happen sooner or later. Hatty's land is a GP farm dream.

You were right about the horse counters. Hatty has horses. And what crusading army is complete without pikes. ( I like the medieval units)

 

[JesusOnEez]

Catapult kills Swordsman (was supposed to be suicidal but I won't complain)
Catapult kills Axeman

Go Cats!!!

JesusOnEez. Do you have a plan to get our prophet? Hindu missionary to Rome>temple>priest seems like the best. Probably quicker than storming Thebes to get Ankor, although that suerly will happen sooner or later. Hatty's land is a GP farm dream.

I'm happy to go with the consensus...yes, we could storm Thebes and we may well do that, but I'm not going to take any risks and will be pushing the Hindu Missionary to Rome, building a Temple and running a Priest.

Got it, and should be able to play today.

I'll have a look at the save regarding the "E" city spot, as it's not all shown in the screenshot. Tours looks crappy (no production that I can see)...I'd rather keep Bensacot out of the two, but then, I'm a production whore.

 

[Rince]

I'll have a look at the save regarding the "E" city spot, as it's not all shown in the screenshot.

Mice posted a close-up of the spot earlier:

Rince

 

[mice]

I'm happy to go with the consensus...yes, we could storm Thebes and we may well do that, but I'm not going to take any risks and will be pushing the Hindu Missionary to Rome, building a Temple and running a Priest.

I wasn't being too serious about Thebes. It will be a while before we can build a good enough army.
It also has the Great Lighthouse and The Gardens, so we could get a Merchant or an Engineer.

 

[JesusOnEez]

Thanks. Looks a good spot for a research/production hybrid...three mines and cottage the rest (apart from the food obviously).

 

[JesusOnEez]

OK...so here's a rundown of what I want to do with my 10 turns;

Settle proposed city spot "E".
Destroy France.
Whip Monastery in Paris, then whip Missionary.
Spread Hinduism to Rome and run another Priest.
Whip Theatre in Essen.
Check Lyons build priorities.
Cancel Praet in Orleans for a Barracks.
Check trades.

Not much then!

PRE-TURN - 1184AD
I can't attack Besancon yet...we'd lose, so I start mobilising the troops that are guarding against counter attacks in that direction...I'm risky like that!
I suicide a Barrage Cat against the Horse Archer and lose, but at least it won't kill our GG (probably).
A Hindu Monastery is whipped in Paris for 3 pop, and Essen whips it Theatre.
3 Workers at Essen are doing nothing, so I put them to work.
I change Lyons build from a Forum to a Forge...this looks to be a good production city in the future.
Orleans is now building a Barracks.
Trades are too much swayed in the AI's favour so I ignore them for now.

TURN 1 - 1190AD
The whipped Theatre in Essen finishes, and it starts a Granary.
The whipped Monastery in Paris finishes and I whip a Missionary. There was a Temple and a Worker in the queue, so I remove them in favour of the whipped Hammers going towards the Courthouse.
More troops movements to Besancon.
That damaged HA buggered of somewhere.

TURN 2 - 1196AD
Pisae finishes a Lighthouse, starts Aqueduct to quell health issues. I would suggest a Monastery next for the research boost.
The Hindu Missionary is on the way to Rome.

TURN 3 - 1202AD
Rome finishes a Cat, starts Praet.

TURN 4 - 1208AD
Fred defies the true faith and turns Jewish, although he's still pleased with us.
I start Bombarding Besancon.
Mediolanum is founded on spot "E", starts Theatre which should be whipped as soon as possible.

TURN 5 - 1214AD
That HA turns up again by jumping a brand new Praet and killing him without so much as a scratch. A Cover I Praet wreaks his vengeance upon him (just).
Besancon is bombarded further, and is razed! Lost a couple of Cats here.

We get another GG!

I notice that there's a sign about building the HE in Orleans, so I send him that way ready for building an Academy when Education eventually rolls in. Feel free to veto this and use him for something else, as we'll probably get another GG before Education.
Christian Missionary reaches Essen and spreads the faith.
I try a trade with Fred...

Compass for getting Optics...I assume we'll be exploring soon, and Horse Riding for the eventual research of Guilds for Knights.

TURN 6 - 1220AD
Hatty demands 280 Gold. I tell her to smeg off...hope I don't regret that.

Rome finishes a Praet and starts a Stable for the eventual Knights...feel free to veto this for now.
I can see why Freddy converted to Judaism...Hatty has Missionary units all over the place.

TURN 7 - 1226AD
Nothing!

TURN 8 - 1232AD
Start the bombarding of Tours. They're at 50%, and the 4 Cats took them down to 24%.
Machinery comes in and Engineering is started.
The hindu Missionary finally arrives in Rome...I hope this works...YES! The godless heathens of Hinduism have spread their faith in our glorious holy city! The turds! Rome whips a Hindu Temple.

TURN 9 - 1238AD
CRAP! The 2 Archers in Tours are now 2 Longbowmen. One of them is glowing the blue of a potential upgrade...this is not good. I bombard Tours down to 0%, and use the CR3 Praet to kill this Longbowman. I can't continue this until the Cat's have healed to start on some collateral damage dealing! However, i couldn't let that Longbow upgrade.

TURN 10 - 1244AD
Blow by blow...
Cat takes on a Longbow and withdraws!
Cat takes on a Sword and wins @ 41%!
Cat loses to Cat @ 32%
Axe beats Longbow @ 97%
Praet beats Cat @ 97%
Praet beats Spear @ >99.9%
Praet beats Archer @ >99.9%

Ta da!

 

[JesusOnEez]

ROOSTER
Cosmichail
Rince
JesusOnEez - Killed the French
Mice - Has boring turns to come
Vra379971 - On Deck

Remember the GG is in Orleans.
30 turns to GP in Rome now that 2 PS are running.
Whip the Theatres in Tours and Mediolanum ASAP.

Things I want...
Optics for exploring outside our continent.
Guilds for building Knights.
Many more Spears/Pikes before taking on Hatty.
Trebuchets before taking on Hatty.
Spamming Christian Missionaries to Germany to get him back into the fold.
Spamming Christian Missionaries to a few of our own cities.

Think that's about it...DO IT NOW!