Jordan Peterson

[warpus]

This is the weirdest conversation about Jordan Peterson I've ever read

 

[Lexicus]

If you're telling me it's impossible, *in principle* to come up with standards that measure productivity in a way that accurately or somewhat accurately predicts $$$ (or any other outcome measure) generated/consumed on average you're making an extraordinary claim.

No, it isn't impossible *in principle* to come up with such measures. Accurately measuring all the inputs and outputs is prohibitively difficult but possible in principle.

If you're telling me that a model that does this accurately is nevertheless not useful, you're still making an extraordinary claim.

Yes, I am telling you that such a model will not be useful. Because all the most important aspects of the human experience cannot be quantified such that they are measured as inputs or outputs in the model we discussed above. And, as I alluded to in a previous post, only eugenicist douchebags believe that it would be desirable to reduce human life to such measurements and models.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This is the weirdest conversation about Jordan Peterson I've ever read

There has certainly been plenty of conversational drift, much of it in unexpected directions.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Next up on the Jordan Peterson debate: Bagels; Where do the holes go? Can you buy bagel holes somewhere? Furthermore, do sharks like bagels?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Next up on the Jordan Peterson debate: Bagels; Where do the holes go? Can you buy bagel holes somewhere? Furthermore, do sharks like bagels?

Drift, on a continental scale.

 

[warpus]

And why do people always insist on cutting bagels in half? It's like they're conditioned to do this no matter what, even if it makes 0 sense

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Problem is that for every experiment that you set up that nominally proves the hypothesis you could set up an equally valid experiment that disproves it just by adjusting across the spectrum of valid measures of work. For every "when I assign this guy a brain surgery I have to supervise him so much that it would be easier to do it myself" I will show you a guy happily digging a ditch for me to lay in a water main where all I had to do was spray paint a line on the ground when I dropped him off. The elitism inherent in the statement itself will incline the person who made it to take the brain surgeon proof as definitive, but I'm still not wanting to dig that ditch myself.

That's not really going away from what I said though. Brain surgery and digging ditches are both productive tasks by any reasonable measure (they are assigned different values by the market, but both have positive value). If you experimentally verify that a certain range of IQ can be work/productivity positive digging ditches (and likely many similar things) while needing more work to perform brain surgery than productivity yielded...so what? That seems like a reasonable outcome, and if 80 IQ a) gets you ditches and b) you need ditches then isn't this a case of a falsifiable hypothesis being falsified?

For the hypothesis to hold as stated you'd need to show that the population at a given IQ on average actually can't do tasks with value at a level greater than the work/effort required to sustain them.

What would you consider a "valid measure of work?" That should be non-arbitrary. Work has value, people pay money for it.

There should be some theoretical low bounds of IQ that would preclude doing tasks with sufficient value to sustain oneself (IE can't comprehend sufficiently to dig a ditch etc). I'd rather have a policy for that boundary than refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Yeekim]

Problem is that for every experiment that you set up that nominally proves the hypothesis you could set up an equally valid experiment that disproves it just by adjusting across the spectrum of valid measures of work. For every "when I assign this guy a brain surgery I have to supervise him so much that it would be easier to do it myself" I will show you a guy happily digging a ditch for me to lay in a water main where all I had to do was spray paint a line on the ground when I dropped him off. The elitism inherent in the statement itself will incline the person who made it to take the brain surgeon proof as definitive, but I'm still not wanting to dig that ditch myself.

Sure - but the ditch digging kind of work is generally getting scarcer and scarcer. How well will that guy be able to support himself with that level of expertise?

EDIT: @TheMeInTeam : I'm pretty sure that you don't even need an IQ of 80 to successfully dig ditches. Should be trivial to prove experimentally, too.

Yes, I am telling you that such a model will not be useful. Because all the most important aspects of the human experience cannot be quantified such that they are measured as inputs or outputs in the model we discussed above. And, as I alluded to in a previous post, only eugenicist douchebags believe that it would be desirable to reduce human life to such measurements and models.

No disagreement. But pointing something out is not always necessarily "reducing people to such models". After all, if we substitute IQ 80 to IQ 40 the statement isn't exactly controversial any more, is it?
One could be talking about the challenges faced by IQ 80 people in the context of necessary education or employment reform, or in the context of automation changing out way of life, or whatever.
Yes, being "eugenicist douchebag" is a very real possibility, but then I'd like something more than that single quote to support that conclusion.

 

[BenitoChavez]

Next up on the Jordan Peterson debate: Bagels; Where do the holes go? Can you buy bagel holes somewhere? Furthermore, do sharks like bagels?

The holes are in the middle of the bagel. You can buy bagel holes by buying the bagel. Sharks prefer swimmer's legs.

And why do people always insist on cutting bagels in half? It's like they're conditioned to do this no matter what, even if it makes 0 sense

So you can put your cream cheese, jam, etc on it. Plain bagels are pretty meh and trying to spread your substance of choice on the round part doesn't work too well.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's not really going away from what I said though. Brain surgery and digging ditches are both productive tasks by any reasonable measure (they are assigned different values by the market, but both have positive value). If you experimentally verify that a certain range of IQ can be work/productivity positive digging ditches (and likely many similar things) while needing more work to perform brain surgery than productivity yielded...so what? That seems like a reasonable outcome, and if 80 IQ a) gets you ditches and b) you need ditches then isn't this a case of a falsifiable hypothesis being falsified?

For the hypothesis to hold as stated you'd need to show that the population at a given IQ on average actually can't do tasks with value at a level greater than the work/effort required to sustain them.

What would you consider a "valid measure of work?" That should be non-arbitrary. Work has value, people pay money for it.

There should be some theoretical low bounds of IQ that would preclude doing tasks with sufficient value to sustain oneself (IE can't comprehend sufficiently to dig a ditch etc). I'd rather have a policy for that boundary than refuse to acknowledge it.

Good point. However the discussion previously was about the statement being a fact. We have now shifted it to a disproved hypothesis. It is not only no closer to being a fact, it is further away.

Yes, there is undoubtedly some point of IQ at which a person is incapable of sustaining themselves. It just isn't 80. That consigns a tenth of the population to the dustbin.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sure - but the ditch digging kind of work is generally getting scarcer and scarcer. How well will that guy be able to support himself with that level of expertise?

I keep hearing this, and yet I have replaced just as many water mains this year already as I have in any previous year...and have yet to meet the genius that can talk one into the ground.

 

[Hygro]

This is the weirdest conversation about Jordan Peterson I've ever read

A bunch of people who haven't watched Jordan Peterson telling others what to think about him.

 

[metatron]

A bunch of people who haven't watched Jordan Peterson telling others what to think about him.

This has to be emphasized.
I do not agree with a number of rather conservative... guesses, for lack of a better term, as to where to hedge, that Peterson makes.
But most of his critics have clearly no acccurate conception of what he is trying to do and say.
And that's largely their fault and not his.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A bunch of people who haven't watched Jordan Peterson telling others what to think about him.

This has to be emphasized.
I do not agree with a number of rather conservative... guesses, for lack of a better term, as to where to hedge, that Peterson makes.
But most of his critics have clearly no acccurate conception of what he is trying to do and say.
And that's largely their fault and not his.

Sorry guys, the dude is just not interesting enough to keep the thread that focused on topic.

 

[Lexicus]

Sorry guys, the dude is just not interesting enough to keep the thread that focused on topic.

How much of the snake oil do you need to consume before recognizing a snake oil salesman?

 

[metatron]

Sorry guys, the dude is just not interesting enough to keep the thread that focused on topic.

Oh, besides us being on page #20, you know me well enough as all "pro tangent".

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Oh, besides us being on page #20, you know me well enough as all "pro tangent".

LOL...I did consider pointing out that I have numerous posts in the thread and make no claim to having listened to a single word from this Peterson guy. I am so tangential that I am off the plane entirely.

 

[warpus]

So you can put your cream cheese, jam, etc on it. Plain bagels are pretty meh and trying to spread your substance of choice on the round part doesn't work too well.

No, I don't mean cut them horizontally. People cut them horizontally.. but then they always for some reason insist on cutting it vertically right down the middle too. So you end up with 4 bagel quadrants as opposed to 2 halves

 

[Hygro]

How much of the snake oil do you need to consume before recognizing a snake oil salesman?

Enjoy Republican victories.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No, I don't mean cut them horizontally. People cut them horizontally.. but then they always for some reason insist on cutting it vertically right down the middle too. So you end up with 4 bagel quadrants as opposed to 2 halves

Okay, I now understand why you'd be weirded out...but where do you see people doing this? I've never seen this myself...that I can think of.