Jordan Peterson

[Berzerker]

how did this thread even turn into debating the political groups responsible for writing drug laws in america

and why is the above poster jumping back and forth between condemning the drug war and playing the local trump apologist on a whim

Other people were discussing the negative impact of policy on black culture and family structure... The drug war is a major factor in that debate. Does criticizing Trump for lying about Obama make me an Obama apologist?

It's just what he does. Call the drug war a Democrat operation, get "Reagan, patron saint of the GOP, stood at a podium and openly declared "war on drugs," ignore facts and keep on keepin' on. Then when someone comes along that won't take that bait he switches to some other piece of random nonsense. I'd say he's an acquired taste, but excrement by the sack just never becomes appealing.

• Passed the House on September 11, 1986 (392-16)
• Passed the Senate on September 30, 1986 (97-2, in lieu of S. 2878) with amendment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Drug_Abuse_Act_of_1986

Democratic Party

253 58.2%

Republican Party 182 41.8%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99th_United_States_Congress

Democrats dont want their racist policies discussed while they're throwing stones at other people.

 

[miaasma]

Other people were discussing the negative impact of policy on black culture and family structure... The drug war is a major factor in that debate. Does criticizing Trump for lying about Obama make me an Obama apologist?

it would, if obama were the one making overtly racist statements and calling neo nazis good people

somehow i don't think you'd be soldiering in his defense if he were, though

 

[Berzerker]

Trump didn't call neo-Nazis good people and I wouldn't defend anyone for saying they were.

So I'd be an Obama apologist if I criticized Trump for lying about him?

 

[miaasma]

i literally just answered your question, look at your posts in this thread

if you don't think trump has indirectly called neo nazis good people in his statement about there being "good people on both sides" then i'm not sure what to tell you

all you've done is either make posts defending trump, or attempt to blame democrats for the entire war on drugs

you also seem pretty certain that everyone critical of trump is a democrat

 

[Berzerker]

i literally just answered your question, look at your posts in this thread

if you don't think trump has indirectly called neo nazis good people in his statement about there being "good people on both sides" then i'm not sure what to tell you

all you've done is either make posts defending trump, or attempt to blame democrats for the entire war on drugs

you also seem pretty certain that everyone critical of trump is a democrat

Your answer was I'd be an Obama apologist if Obama was calling neo-Nazis good people. But I asked if I'd be an Obama apologist if I criticized Trump for lying about him. Why dont you actually quote Trump calling neo-Nazis good people? Because you cant... You have to ignore what he said and pretend all the people protesting the removal of a statue are neo-Nazis. Well, since Trump said there were good people on both sides of the brawl, I guess you'd think the counter protesters were neo-Nazis too.

 

[miaasma]

Well, since Trump said there were good people on both sides of the brawl, I guess you'd think the counter protesters were neo-Nazis too.

sure, you could draw this conclusion if you abandoned any nuanced perspective on this topic

though i suppose you'd need to have one to begin with in order to do that

 

[Timsup2nothin]

sure, you could draw this conclusion if you abandoned any nuanced perspective on this topic

though i suppose you'd need to have one to begin with in order to do that

Now you've caught on.

 

[Mouthwash]

(Even if it matters a lot, I don't think you'll have much luck arguing that the solution is to roll back benefits instead of finding ways to just get rid of the disincentive)

Of course not, that's why I talked about culture.

 

[Миханя]

I read somewhere that because of the historical circumstances, the conditions for black familiality (is it a word?) simply did not exist. For example, slave owners sold slaves left and right, so a slave family could never be sure whether they would still be together the next day (at the same time, white nuclear families did not have to worry about this). It was also very emotionally exhausting to have members of your family taken away, so at some point slaves stopped even trying to build families to avoid the pain of separation. Post-slavery poverty and sharecropping did not help this, and neither did Jim Crow laws. I also read that the FBI (or CIA?) killed the leaders of the Black Panther movement and gave drugs to other members because the American government wanted to destroy the Black Panthers as an organization from the inside. The drug epidemic also eroded the existing family structure, and the following opioid crisis resulted in many African Americans being in jail, which also caused many families to have missing fathers.

I mean, here in Russia we had serfdom until 1861, but at least serfs were considered somewhat human and not objects. They also had a choice to change their master once a year, so compared to American institution of slavery that's just unicorns and rainbows. And families were certainly not torn apart, but during Stalin's dictatorship many families were destroyed, and after the 90's, many children grew up in families without fathers.

So yeah, basically my point is that there are many bigger forces which form the institute of a family and familial structures, so if you want your analysis to be accurate, you have to take into account the entire historical, economic, and political landscape before making arguments about "so and so culture". Sorry if this was a long-winded argument.

Mouthwash used to live in the US but is now in Israel.

I have a few friends in Israel, and they say people from Eastern Europe are treated as second-class citizens (it's worse for Arabs and Africans). Maybe that's why @Mouthwash is ignoring me. I am a second-class member of the forum because I am from Russia.

 

[Mouthwash]

I have a few friends in Israel, and they say people from Eastern Europe are treated as second-class citizens

Bull. A lot of post-Soviet immigrants are non-Jews, so people tend to avoid dating them and stuff. But no sane observer would describe them as 'second-class citizens' (much less Eastern Europeans as a whole).

You likely misinterpreted them, or they're nuts.

(it's worse for Arabs and Africans).

They've had a hard time in Israel, but they are not treated as third-class citizens (or whatever you mean by "worse than second-class citizens"). The situation for Africans is worse than the Arabs, but I don't think it's even as hard as life in African-American communities.

Maybe that's why @Mouthwash is ignoring me. I am a second-class member of the forum because I am from Russia.

This is some attempt at humor? I simply didn't see your original post.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Did we view that through the lens of the population ratios drawn by this crude demarcation?

Doesn't matter. I viewed it through the lens of this:

Black women often

and provided the statistic to show that "white women more often"... showing that his point had no point.

@Farm Boy - As I've stated many times... the oft repeated refrain of "black people do this XYZ bad thing more than anyone else!!" is meaningless... unless you are going to then assert that "they do XYZ, because they are black and there is a inherent tendency/predisposition for blacks to do XYZ"... which most people won't, because they recognize that it would be a blatantly racist statement. What some people do instead, is try to couch it in other ways... usually by referring to "culture".

 

[Sommerswerd]

Other people were discussing the negative impact of policy on black culture and family structure... The drug war is a major factor in that debate.

Actually no... folks were mostly arguing over the NFL Flag kneeling/BLM issue, specifically about police shootings of black people and whether the opponents of the protest were truly motivated by flag-reverence or by opposition to the underlying BLM cause. You were the very first person in this thread to bring up drugs/Drug war in this post.

So the answer to this question:

how did this thread even turn into debating the political groups responsible for writing drug laws in america and why is the above poster jumping back and forth between condemning the drug war and playing the local trump apologist on a whim

is more accurately stated that "Berzerker derailed the thread into discussing that topic because that's what he always does."

 

[Farm Boy]

Doesn't matter. I viewed it through the lens of this: and provided the statistic to show that "white women more often"... showing that his point had no point.

@Farm Boy - As I've stated many times... the oft repeated refrain of "black people do this XYZ bad thing more than anyone else!!" is meaningless... unless you are going to then assert that "they do XYZ, because they are black and there is a inherent tendency/predisposition for blacks to do XYZ"... which most people won't, because they recognize that it would be a blatantly racist statement. What some people do instead, is try to couch it in other ways... usually by referring to "culture".

Cultures do not exist in a vacuum. We can both assume that pigmentation is a lens for idiots, it is. But idiots have impact, and that plays into culture. Raising intergenerational good(like, as in, as part of culture) is hard. It takes a lifetime of work, you have to like doing it, because then you die. Right? Certain things will be done more often by white women in the US because there are a lot of them, relatively. But women of color will more frequently have to put up with certain things, and do what must be done to deal with it. If we've incarcerated and lynched and impoverished more than our share of black men, then black women will have picked up a lot of work because of that.

Though, lets be real. Considering how many black men are amazing fathers, it's really troubling that this is the perpetual narrative.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Bull. A lot of post-Soviet immigrants are non-Jews, so people tend to avoid dating them and stuff. But no sane observer would describe them as 'second-class citizens' (much less Eastern Europeans as a whole).

This illuminates the Israeli blind spot. "We aren't a theocracy though we do treat people that aren't following the unofficial state religion differently as should only be expected by them...but holocaust so we should be allowed to do what anyone else would be condemned for and it will never occur to us that there is anything wrong with it."

 

[Broken_Erika]

Möbius logic?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Though, lets be real. Considering how many black men are amazing fathers, it's really troubling that this is the perpetual narrative.

Some men are amazing fathers. Some are not so amazing... there are countless factors that go into determining which. Whether the father is black, in and of itself, is not one of them.

 

[Farm Boy]

Unless, of course, his pigmentation has been responsible, or partially responsible*, for his removal from the scene. Self directed or not. He doesn't get to live in a vacuum either, right? Maybe he's been told and implied and side-eyed like he's crap at this for ages. I think we both agree that's an effective strategy for influencing people.

Like our presently absent poster who shall not be named who is probably absent for reasons that shall not be named, managed to get swung from "the wildlife refuge is populated by traitors who should be shot" to arguing the right to revolution(something not really uncommon around here) to silenced. Seems to work as just a sort of general interaction.

*Right though, not in and of itself. The problem is with the narratives. Ie, what we all say.

 

[metalhead]

Also a neat example of how something one might chalk up to "culture" actually could be explained by a negative externality which is a product of racial prejudice. That was the point I was trying to get at earlier. It's not as if there aren't plenty of communities with significant social problems.

Thing is, you see similar problems - lots of young single parents, rampant addiction - in pretty much any community regardless of race that is socially and economically isolated from prosperity. Racial prejudice can of course present additional challenges, but that's a failing of the "culture" of the people in charge, i.e. white people, that it seems to go on virtually unchecked.

 

[Farm Boy]

That's a lens alright.

 

[Berzerker]

https://mic.com/articles/189162/exc...pardoning-nonviolent-drug-offender#.AU9gCNrwW

Thats interesting given Kanye West's attitude toward Trump recently, maybe he's buying her freedom by taking daggers in his back. But this story - life in prison for drugs - is a good example of whats been happening to 'black culture'. And this evil happened under Bill Clinton and was not remedied by Obama...

Actually no... folks were mostly arguing over the NFL Flag kneeling/BLM issue, specifically about police shootings of black people and whether the opponents of the protest were truly motivated by flag-reverence or by opposition to the underlying BLM cause. You were the very first person in this thread to bring up drugs/Drug war in this post.

So the answer to this question: is more accurately stated that "Berzerker derailed the thread into discussing that topic because that's what he always does."

You weren't in the discussion, read it before you accuse me of derailing the thread. You can start by reading your link.

it'd be interesting if he could go into detail about what he thinks black culture consists of, and which elements of it are responsible for the supposed devastation of black communities

That was posted by miaasma and I responded to it. Do you see anything in there about the flag or BLM. And miaasma was asking mouthwash to go into detail on the causes of the supposed devastation of black communities. I was reading the discussion between Traitor Fish and mouthwash when I saw miaasma's request. Would you agree the drug war has had a devastating impact on black communities?

sure, you could draw this conclusion if you abandoned any nuanced perspective on this topic

though i suppose you'd need to have one to begin with in order to do that

You think Trump said neo-Nazis were good people because he said there were good people on both sides of a protest/brawl in which a minority of participants were neo-Nazis. By your own logic, not only are all the protesters neo-Nazis, the counter protesters are neo-Nazis. If Trump identified the neo-Nazis as good people, then who are the good people on the other side? Neo-Nazis.