Jordan Peterson

[Mouthwash]

It didn’t happen. A worker had their labor value stolen by an employer,

The market sets their value. No one has anyone to blame but themselves if they didn't do their best. And hey, I'm not against charity - that's the charity-giver's business.

who was empowered by violence both physical and social.

Just like asking someone out at an inopportune moment, hmm?

 

[inthesomeday]

The market sets their value. No one has anyone to blame but themselves if they didn't do their best. And hey, I'm not against charity - that's the charity-giver's business.

What are you talking about? What you’ve said is effectively irrelevant to what I said. In fact I’m sensing a pattern of this in how you post. For example, you were ranting incoherently about how misogynistic you are and I noted a logical inconsistency of yours— mocking the idea of oppression in women being forced to interact with men they don’t wish to— and you deflected it into a conversation about exploitation where you made a bizarre claim about employers being coerced by their workers. @Timsup2nothin actually discussed this tactic of yours earlier, deflecting into increasingly nonsensical tangents when challenged. So anyway back to point.

Just like asking someone out at an inopportune moment, hmm?

Again I don’t really see the relevance of this, but I’ll try and just work through it. If you’re trying to bait me into calling this oppressive or something I’ll say that it is rather oppressive how the social pressure on men to initiate interactions both creates a weird aggressive anxiety in men and a really uncomfortable situation for women who often don’t want to be asked out.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Welcome to my world.

 

[Yeekim]

It's worth noting that Peterson has pointed to the liberalisation of divorce laws as one of the great ills of twenty-first century society.
He may not support forcing women to marry, but he seems comfortable forcing them to stay married.

It would seem that liberalisation of divorce laws affects men as much as women, for good and bad.

Anyway, being deprived of intimacy undoubtedly causes deep, deep problems for most individuals, regardless of gender.
Monogamous society definitely cures that... at least to a degree. But enforcing(?) this creates different problems, so this "cure" arguably becomes worse than the ill itself.
I also can't see how one can advocate such society and call himself liberal (did JP call himself liberal?). Depending on how serious you get with "enforcement", you can end up deep in totalitarian territory.

Finally, the situation where only the best males get all/most of the girls is nothing if not perfectly natural. For a lot of species, at least.
If we're to consider other examples, I'd rather go Bonobo way.

Another random bit of advice for incels would be that evolutionarily speaking, homosexuality is just different way of grooming for lice. Just more fun, according to some.

 

[Kyriakos]

I do wonder if Peterson will still be a thing in 5 years. Or if he will be similar to what Shapiro/Milo are, ie mostly has-beens who go on due to past momentum. Unlike said people, he is a uni professor, but this can expose him far more, and everyone who has been to university knows first hand that some professors really are horribly bad, in more ways than one.
That said, one would have expected the 'culture wars' to have been a fad too, but the ever rising polarization made them stick around.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It would seem that liberalisation of divorce laws affects men as much as women, for good and bad.

Shh don't spoil the magic. We have to pretend that this is just about women so we can call it misogyny.

 

[Lexicus]

Again I don’t really see the relevance of this, but I’ll try and just work through it. If you’re trying to bait me into calling this oppressive or something I’ll say that it is rather oppressive how the social pressure on men to initiate interactions both creates a weird aggressive anxiety in men and a really uncomfortable situation for women who often don’t want to be asked out.

Do you believe that in a society free of sexism, dating and romance would be free of awkwardness and uncomfortable situations? I sure don't.

ugly men.

Ugly men meaning men who think that the government should issue them a wife?

 

[inthesomeday]

Do you believe that in a society free of sexism, dating and romance would be free of awkwardness and uncomfortable situations? I sure don't.

Not completely free but a lot less burdened by them. Today women have all reason to feel downright threatened in a lot of reactions with men, and the persistence of men (much of which is socially constructed and imposed) often boils down to essentially heckling.

Ugly men meaning men who think that the government should issue them a wife?

Yes

 

[Yeekim]

a society free of /.../ dating and romance

Which society would that be? One where babies are grown in labs only? I'll keep my awkward situations, thank you.
EDIT: Reading comprehension fail on my part.

 

[Lexicus]

Which society would that be? One where babies are grown in labs only? I'll keep my awkward situations, thank you.

Please reread, your comprehension has failed

 

[Yeekim]

Please reread, your comprehension has failed

Indeed it has.

 

[Mouthwash]

What are you talking about? What you’ve said is effectively irrelevant to what I said. In fact I’m sensing a pattern of this in how you post. For example, you were ranting incoherently about how misogynistic you are and I noted a logical inconsistency of yours— mocking the idea of oppression in women being forced to interact with men they don’t wish to— and you deflected it into a conversation about exploitation where you made a bizarre claim about employers being coerced by their workers.

I think you should consider whether you fully understood what was happening.

Again I don’t really see the relevance of this, but I’ll try and just work through it. If you’re trying to bait me into calling this oppressive or something I’ll say that it is rather oppressive how the social pressure on men to initiate interactions both creates a weird aggressive anxiety in men and a really uncomfortable situation for women who often don’t want to be asked out.

Great, so are you going to apply pressure on women to ask men out? And not only the hottest 20% of men?

It would seem that liberalisation of divorce laws affects men as much as women, for good and bad.

Anyway, being deprived of intimacy undoubtedly causes deep, deep problems for most individuals, regardless of gender.
Monogamous society definitely cures that... at least to a degree. But enforcing(?) this creates different problems, so this "cure" arguably becomes worse than the ill itself.

By the way liberals talk you'd think we only emerged from the dark ages in the 70's. People before then were happier than we are, you realize?

I also can't see how one can advocate such society and call himself liberal (did JP call himself liberal?). Depending on how serious you get with "enforcement", you can end up deep in totalitarian territory.

Unless no society before the 70's was liberal, I'd say you're wrong here. Maybe such a society wouldn't be AS liberal as you would like, but liberalism isn't an end in itself.

Finally, the situation where only the best males get all/most of the girls is nothing if not perfectly natural. For a lot of species, at least.

Well then let's organize ourselves like animals. Maybe men marrying widows should get to kill off any previous children she has, so we can really imitate the ways of nature.

 

[inthesomeday]

Great, so are you going to apply pressure on women to ask men out? And not only the hottest 20% of men?

This is a classic niceguy/incel talking point. You sure you’re not one of them?

Anyway no, the solution is to relieve men of that pressure by deconstructing the popular concepts of romance and masculinity.

 

[Mouthwash]

Anyway no, the solution is to relieve men of that pressure by deconstructing the popular concepts of romance and masculinity.

And what effect do you think that will have?

 

[inthesomeday]

Less masculinity? And thus less masculine violence? The very obvious effect?

 

[Lexicus]

And what effect do you think that will have?

Probably leading men to feel less need to make jackasses of themselves in the course of acting on their romantic attractions.

 

[Synobun]

Dating becomes a lot more fun when you remove the social norms surrounding courting anyways.

 

[inthesomeday]

Dating becomes a lot more fun when you remove the social norms surrounding courting anyways.

Maybe at first pinko. Then you end up DESTROYING CIVILIZATION and then how fun is it?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Maybe at first pinko. Then you end up DESTROYING CIVILIZATION and then how fun is it?

Lots! Destroying Civilization is one of the funnest activities one can engage in!

 

[Миханя]

There are other things like this as well. For instance, James Damore's infamous Google memo stated, among other things, that there are inherent differences in interest (not ability, but interest) between men and women, which are unlikely to be socially constructed and which explain male overrepresentation in many STEM fields.

I was not aware of this case, so I did some personal research on the topic. I read a few articles, and here is the timeline I constructed for myself:

1. James Damore enrolls in Harvard as a graduate student
2. James Damore participates in a sexist skit at the university, for which his professors have to apologize (must be that bad?)
3. James Damore is not a very good student, so he drops out of his PhD program
4. On his LinkedIn he lies that he received a PhD, but Harvard confirmed he dropped out after receiving a master's degree
5. James Damore starts working at Google
6. James Damore is not a great employee and doesn't receive promotions
7. James Damore blames women and minorities and claims that white men are oppressed, therefore he has not been promoted
8. James Damore writes a paper where he "proves" that women aren't good at science, therefore implying he should have received promotions
9. James Damore gets fired because his employee evaluations have been bad from year to year, he violated the company's code of conduct, and Google is a private company which can hire and fire "at will"

Now, I also did looked up Google employee statistics: https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014...-data-illustrating-techs-diversity-challenge/

Thirty percent of Google’s 46,170 employees worldwide are women, the company said, and 17 percent of its technical employees are women. Comparatively, 47 percent of the total work force in the United States is women and 20 percent of software developers are women, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Of its United States employees, 61 percent are white, 2 percent are black and 3 percent are Hispanic. About one-third are Asian — well above the national average — and 4 percent are of two or more races. Of Google’s technical staff, 60 percent are white, 1 percent are black, 2 percent are Hispanic, 34 percent are Asian and 3 percent are of two or more races.

So this is what I found on the Internet. Now, my question to the people who live in the US:

1. How can someone claim that Google discriminates against white men if 80% of Google's programmers are men, and 61% are white? How can 2% of African Americans oppress an entire company with tens of thousands of white employees?
2. If Google is a private company which can fire people "at will", how can you complain about being fired and try to take them to court when you signed a contract which says you can be fired at will?

I am sorry, but to me this sounds like some absurd first world problem. In my country, people go to jail for social media posts or for protesting government injustice and many people live below the poverty line. And some guy who went to Harvard and worked at Google is complaining about being oppressed? Harvard is a world renowned top-tier university, and Google is used daily by billions of people, just how freaking bad do you want to be a victim to say that you are being discriminated against when you are at the top of the world? Stuff like this makes me really angry.