Jordan Peterson

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Fair point. But, I don't necessarily think they are inextricably linked. I'm just not so sure other paths would have yeilded any better results.

How about considering it logically? I mean a society in which a broader proportion of the population has the ability to contribute to scientific advances etc is almost certain to experience those advances more rapidly, simply by virtue of having more very intelligent scientists. Likewise a society in which new advances are subject to community ownership is certain to experience more rapid expansion of the benefits of those technologies to the general populace.
 
How about considering it logically? I mean a society in which a broader proportion of the population has the ability to contribute to scientific advances etc is almost certain to experience those advances more rapidly, simply by virtue of having more very intelligent scientists. Likewise a society in which new advances are subject to community ownership is certain to experience more rapid expansion of the benefits of those technologies to the general populace.

Those are empirical claims, not logical ones, and I find both of them dubious.
 
TIL: luiz believes facts are a popularity contest
Not really, but to "debunk" the very well established fact that extreme poverty has plummeted in the last decades it'd take more than the word of an unknown professor cited by the mouthpiece of the Qatari monarchy.

Saying that China is raising people out of poverty with "free market capitalism" is laughably false.
Where did you read "free market capitalism" in my post? I talked about the present system and capitalism. China is certainly a big part of the present economic system, and it's certainly capitalistic. As is India in the last few decades - that is, when they actually started moving forward.

It wasn't the Revolution per se, it was the years of civil war that followed, not to mention World War I, which took a large chunk out of the output of every nation in Europe.
WW1 is a fair point, but again, Russia recovered faster from the far more brutal WW2.

The Civil War was caused by the revolution so it reinforces my point. Or you really think you can really overthrown "the pillars of civilization" without a fight? The cost of that fight is on you.
 
How about considering it logically? I mean a society in which a broader proportion of the population has the ability to contribute to scientific advances etc is almost certain to experience those advances more rapidly, simply by virtue of having more very intelligent scientists. Likewise a society in which new advances are subject to community ownership is certain to experience more rapid expansion of the benefits of those technologies to the general populace.
Which is why Cuba and North Korea are way more innovative than the US or Japan.
 
Which is why Cuba and North Korea are way more innovative than the US or Japan.

I mean this is basically a troll response.

Those are empirical claims, not logical ones, and I find both of them dubious.

How come? How does the death of Einstein-level genius in sweatshops and cotton fields lead to faster technological development? How does the overpricing of Apple products by 100s of times in USD what it takes to produce and ship them make them distributable to the general populace faster? How do horrific, demotivating, effectively slavery-like work conditions drive productivity?
 
Fair point. But, I don't necessarily think they are inextricably linked. I'm just not so sure other paths would have yeilded any better results.

This is the conundrum of economics. You can have all the theories you want, but you only get one experiment.
 
As lexicus explained, the metric of lifting people out of poverty is meaningless when you can arbitrarily decide what poverty is.

Are we better off now than before large scale industrial capitalism? Yes. But that has everything to do with technology and relatively little to do with economy.
 
It's not really controversial that the capital accumulation caused by capitalism was greatly responsible for technological progress.

And if you look at India and Chine, there is no denying that moving to a more capitalistic system lifted hundreds of millions of people from extreme poverty. This was caused entirely by a change of economic system.
 
I mean this is basically a troll response.
It isn't. You talk about "community ownership" and whatever, but the truth is we don't know what that would look like. We do know what the last great attempts at community ownership turned out like - like Cuba, Maoist China, the USSR, North Korea. Millions of people died to create those régimes, and ultimately they sucked. I don't think your dream regime would be any better, and I don't think it's worth a single life. What we have now is not perfect but it's much better than the crap you're peddling.
 
This just strikes me as so odd. The world was an absolutely dreadful place throughout all of human history, but yet today some people want to blame capitalism for almost every problem they see. I'm no big fan of capitalism, and I see a huge amount of inherent flaws in the system, but blaming problems on capitalism that have been a part of the human condition, and often much worse than they are today, for millennia, simply doesn't stand to reason.
Are you expecting me to defend feudalism, or...?
 
We've had a couple of threads on the topic in the past. Here's the one that immediately came to mind for me:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-to-get-a-date-because-youre-too-nice.486517/
Or he could just watch this short video.


It's not really controversial that the capital accumulation caused by capitalism was greatly responsible for technological progress.

And if you look at India and Chine, there is no denying that moving to a more capitalistic system lifted hundreds of millions of people from extreme poverty. This was caused entirely by a change of economic system.
China, just like USSR, was a state capitalist economy. And India was a British colony until sixty years ago, so most of its resources were extracted by Britain.

Just going to leave this here: Study By MIT Economist: U.S. Has Regressed To A Third-World Nation For Most Of Its Citizens. The system is working, you guys.

Moderator Action: Please employ the use of + Quote to put multiple quotes in one post, rather than multi-posting. Thank you. ~ Arakhor
 
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China, just like USSR, was a state capitalist economy. And India was a British colony until sixty years ago, so most of its resources were extracted by Britain.

Just going to leave this here: Study By MIT Economist: U.S. Has Regressed To A Third-World Nation For Most Of Its Citizens. The system is working, you guys.
Dude, what part of "when India and China moved from closed, solicialistic economies to more open, capitalistic economies hundreds of millions people were lifted from poverty" is hard to understand?

India was a British colony until 70 years ago, not 60. And for the first decades it adopted a rather socialistic, closed-economy approach, based on the BS economic thinking of its founding fathers. The result was a pretty bad growth rate and maintenance of abysmal poverty levels. Once India reformed and became more capitalistic (what actually happened after China's own economic reforms), growth picked up magnificently and poverty started to plummet. It's still plummeting today. This is not controversial.

Same with China, only more extreme. Maoist China was a disaster - mass starvation with millions of deaths. Deng turned China into a capitalist country - in many ways China is more capitalistic than Western European countries and even the US. The result was nothing short of spectacular. When Deng took over China was an extremely poor backwater - it's economy was about half the size of Brazil's economy, despite having 6 times more people, and Brazil also being poor. Now the Chinese economy is 6 times bigger than the Brazilian economy, and the difference is widening. Again, not really controversial that Deng's capitalistic reforms took China out of the hole communism had dug.

The bottom line is that capitalism works, socialism / communism / whatever BSism kids like these days don't. There are many different ways to run a capitalist economy, from the US to Germany to France to Denmark to China they're all different but all still capitalist. And they're all "working". Cuba and North Korean aren't, and socialism also destroyed what was once South America's richest country, Venezuela. So let's tweak what works, not blow everything up for something that demonstrably does not.
 
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Dude, what part of "when India and China moved from closed, solicialistic economies to more open, capitalistic economies hundreds of millions people were lifted from poverty" is hard to understand?
It's the "when".

The assumption is that market-oriented economies generate prosperity almost automatically, and moreover that they generalise this prosperity automatically. That this prosperity was for the taking, at any moment, had the government simply implemented this or that package of reforms. But it's hardly self-evident that this is the case- or that, given the massive stake that the Chinese state maintains in many major firms, that these reforms have actually ever been implemented, at least in any fashion that would be recommended by mainstream Western economists.
 
Dude, what part of "when India and China moved from closed, solicialistic economies to more open, capitalistic economies hundreds of millions people were lifted from poverty" is hard to understand?

The entire thing. It’s rather nonsensical, frankly, and more simplistic and ignorant of things like context, history, and political theory than a cereal ad.

India was a British colony until 70 years ago, not 60. And for the first decades it adopted a rather socialistic, closed-economy approach, based on the BS economic thinking of its founding fathers.

This is wrong.

The result was a pretty bad growth rate and maintenance of abysmal poverty levels. Once India reformed and became more capitalistic (what actually happened after China's own economic reforms), growth picked up magnificently and poverty started to plummet. It's still plummeting today. This is not controversial.

This is only wrong because that first part was wrong. Anyway, you’re still just straight up ignoring everyone telling you that you have a really silly and inconsistent definition of poverty.

Same with China, only more extreme. Maoist China was a disaster - mass starvation with millions of deaths. Deng turned China into a capitalist country - in many ways China is more capitalistic than Western European countries and even the US. The result was nothing short of spectacular. When Deng took over China was an extremely poor backwater - it's economy was about half the size of Brazil's economy, despite having 6 times more people, and Brazil also being poor. Now the Chinese economy is 6 times bigger than the Brazilian economy, and the difference is widening. Again, not really controversial that Deng's capitalistic reforms took China out of the hole communism had dug.

Have you ever even seen a history book? Do you think things just sprung up from nowhere, just spawning into existence? There is SO much delicate historical context you’re ignoring here.

The bottom line is that capitalism works, socialism / communism / whatever BSism kids like these days don't. There are many different ways to run a capitalist economy, from the US to Germany to France to Denmark to China they're all different but all still capitalist. And they're all "working". Cuba and North Korean aren't, and socialism also destroyed what was once South America's richest country, Venezuela. So let's tweak what works, not blow everything up for something that demonstrably does now.

Do you just get to pick what is and isn’t socialism? Venezuela is about as socialist as Denmark, probably less so, and it’s almost laughable to blame its economic collapse on more socialism.
 
40 million on foodstamps in the US - the system works.
You clearly missed where "we" defined poverty as $2 a day. See when you define poverty that way, its alot easier to assert that worldwide poverty is being overcome... now if you define it as below something more like a living wage... I'd guess that there's be much less (if any) progress over the past 30-40 years.
Dude, what part of "when India and China moved from closed, solicialistic economies to more open, capitalistic economies hundreds of millions people were lifted from poverty" is hard to understand?
The part that sets the cutoff line for "poverty" at $2.

Oh wait... its not even $2!:lol: Its $1.90... Why specifically $1.90 and not $2? I'd wager its because that is the absolute maximum you can set the "poverty" line and still be able to get those results that show a steady decline in global poverty. My guess is that if you raised it even to a full $2... those gains would disappear... which lets you know how much of a farce the claim that poverty has decreased is.
 
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Hey! The botom line you guys are missing.
Capitalism=Good
Communism=Evil
You're either pro-capitalist and support it blindly no-matter-what; Or you are a faithless, Stalin-Worshiping, Mao-Monging, Anti-Jobs, Liberal-Leftist Feminist Commie Monster who must be destroyed.
Embrace Capitalism! Or you will be Eradicated!
 
It's the "when".

The assumption is that market-oriented economies generate prosperity almost automatically, and moreover that they generalise this prosperity automatically. That this prosperity was for the taking, at any moment, had the government simply implemented this or that package of reforms. But it's hardly self-evident that this is the case- or that, given the massive stake that the Chinese state maintains in many major firms, that these reforms have actually ever been implemented, at least in any fashion that would be recommended by mainstream Western economists.
It's not controversial that the market-oriented reforms in China and India (and also Vietnam, and many others), generated enormous prosperity and basically rescued these countries from the misery in which they were stuck. It's not controversial that countries with a closed, socialistic economy stand to benefit tremendously from liberalization.

What is more controversial, and has little to do with the above examples, is how much countries that already have market economies would benefit from further liberalization. Conflating these two is not very useful. Getting rid of Maoism and making China capitalistic cannot be compared to whatever tax and spending cutting proposals liberals might have for France or Germany.

The entire thing. It’s rather nonsensical, frankly, and more simplistic and ignorant of things like context, history, and political theory than a cereal ad.
And in the face of this superb argument I should embrace communism?

This is wrong.
Says who?

This is only wrong because that first part was wrong. Anyway, you’re still just straight up ignoring everyone telling you that you have a really silly and inconsistent definition of poverty.
It's neither my definition nor inconsistent. It's the World Banks definition of extreme poverty. But anyway you cut it, poverty fell dramatically in China since it became capitalistic and in India since it liberalized its economy. Define it anyway you want. People making more than $2 per day, $5 per day, $100 per day. The numbers increased dramatically in these two counties in the last decades.

Have you ever even seen a history book? Do you think things just sprung up from nowhere, just spawning into existence? There is SO much delicate historical context you’re ignoring here.
Have YOU ever read a history book, or you're just enamored to your high school history teacher? What's more, have you ever read an economics book? Have you ever read anything about the reforms Deng Xiaoping implemented and their impact? Have you ever read anything about the economic history of India post independence? I'm guessing not.

Do you just get to pick what is and isn’t socialism? Venezuela is about as socialist as Denmark, probably less so, and it’s almost laughable to blame its economic collapse on more socialism.
Ha, as we say in Brazil, an ugly baby has no parents. When there was still oil money to burn, socialists hailed Venezuela as the greatest thing of all times. From Chomsky to jacobin mag clowns, every far leftist in the world made pilgrimage to Caracas to kiss the butt of the red caudillo. Now that its bankrupt, as all socialist countries become, it's no longer socialist. Ha.

No, it has nothing to do with Denmark. Which BTW is a highly capitalist, free market economy. They just have high taxes and generous welfare schemes.

You clearly missed where "we" defined poverty as $2 a day. See when you define poverty that way, its alot easier to assert that worldwide poverty is being overcome... now if you define it as below something more like a living wage... I'd guess that there's be much less (if any) progress over the past 30-40 years. The part that sets the cutoff line for "poverty" at $2 a year.

Oh wait... its not even $2!:lol: Its $1.90... Why specifically $1.90 and not $2? I'd wager its because that is the absolute maximum you can set the "poverty" line and still be able to get those results that show a steady decline in global poverty. My guess is that if you raised it even to a full $2... those gains would disappear... which lets you know how much of a farce the claim that poverty has decreased is.
Define poverty as any making below any income you want. It dramatically fell in both China and India since they dumped socialism.
 
It's neither my definition nor inconsistent. It's the World Banks definition of extreme poverty.
It doesn't matter who's definition it is. The point is that its not a meaningful metric. Invoking "the World Bank" as an authority doesn't change that. This metric you're touting is like saying a roach infested restaurant has on average, 2 less roaches than prior years, and calling that a "infestation decrease".
Define poverty as any making below any income you want. It dramatically fell in both China and India since they dumped socialism.
As I've already demonstrated, $2 a day is about as arbitrary as it gets in terms of defining "poverty" and $1.90/day is a meaningless figure that was specifically chosen to support the narrative that "poverty" is decreasing. It's like saying that your soccer league has "substantially improved" because the top team used to win 90% of their games by at least 30 goals but now they win 90% their games by at least 28 goals. You can argue "improvement" but the improvement you're pointing to is meaningless. Tell me what percent of teams/games win against the top team compared to prior seasons... Or in this case, give me the statistics for how many more people are making $30-50K/year. There's nothing "dramatic" about an "increase" from $1 a day to $1.90 a day. You're still sick, homeless, uneducated and starving with no hope of improvement or escape.
 
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