Judge Mowat comments: Is it impossible to have a proper discussion on rape?

[Traitorfish]

They do? How so?

 

[Farm Boy]

At least that's what I get out of them. Casual sex, and to a lesser degree, serial monogamy scales more towards disposable partners than they're comfortable with. Though I suppose that isn't entirely gender specific really. Also people that are wary of quick marriages and distressed by serial divorce. But whaddya do?

 

[El_Machinae]

The problem I guess is that enough people go out to bars just so that they can use someone for a night, or get used.. but they might not necessarily think about it from that perspective. As such, some of these scenarios can easily lead to rape, if alcohol is involved, and someone really needs.. that fix.

I getcha. I mean, in own life, many times I've only gotten into a sexual relationship is because booze gave me enough confidence to make the first move.

Here's the thing, in retrospect I didn't mind. Yes, in some technical sense I was taken advantage of, I was clearly in not full control of my faculties. But, if in retrospect, I don't mind, you have a very, very tough time suggesting I was molested.

What burden does this place? That you are responsible to take pains that the person ends up not minding that they had sex? That's not an awful burden.

 

[cardgame]

If I'm too drunk to remember that's a pretty good sign I was not able to give ongoing consent, assuming I was still cognisant at all.

I've heard it's not uncommon to be 'blackout drunk' (in a state of non-remembrance) and yet still be completely functional.

 

[Old Hippy]

I've heard it's not uncommon to be 'blackout drunk' (in a state of non-remembrance) and yet still be completely functional.

true... thats why I don't drink (since new years 2000) the real problem is excusing yourself from a womens house without hurting their feelings, because you have no idea of their name...

 

[Farm Boy]

Just act so it's on you not them.

I HAVE TO CRAP RIGHT NOW!! Oof. I don't feel so good. I better go home.

 

[cardgame]

Just remember; women are told to avoid getting raped, men aren't told to not rape.

The disparity is pretty big.

Swiper no swiping!

Aww, man!

Do you think that's how the world works?

Crime is a fact of life.

 

[warpus]

I getcha. I mean, in own life, many times I've only gotten into a sexual relationship is because booze gave me enough confidence to make the first move.

Here's the thing, in retrospect I didn't mind. Yes, in some technical sense I was taken advantage of, I was clearly in not full control of my faculties. But, if in retrospect, I don't mind, you have a very, very tough time suggesting I was molested.

What burden does this place? That you are responsible to take pains that the person ends up not minding that they had sex? That's not an awful burden.

Yeah, it's a bit of a grey area. Where do you draw the line? People drink booze and go to bars to lower their inhibitions and have fun. Oftentimes that includes sex.

 

[Traitorfish]

Do you think that's how the world works?

Crime is a fact of life.

Jesus, you're just hitting Poe's law after Poe's law this week, in'cha?

 

[Borachio]

Mebbe. Don't know.

"Swiper, no swiping" is a new one on me, though.


Link to video.

Hmm. The uselessness of telling people not to do things. Apparently.

 

[cardgame]

Yeah, telling men not to rape will definitely stop it from happening.

Absolutely sensible approach there. It works for everything.

Don't teach me to be a defensive driver, teach people not to drive recklessly.

The world must cater to me, I refuse to be proactive.

 

[Borachio]

Not incessantly telling men that to be "real" men they must have sex at practically any cost, at every single possible opportunity, might be an alternative approach.

 

[El_Machinae]

It cuts it down. Lotsa men wouldn't wanna be rapists. They're just not told what rape is. They think it's pining a woman down with a switchblade.

There was a joke when I was younger.

"No doesn't mean no. It just means ask me again in 5 drinks"

You can see how drippingly odious that line is. It used to be funny. Now it's not. Because we're telling me not to rape.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yeah, telling men not to rape will definitely stop it from happening.

Absolutely sensible approach there. It works for everything.

Don't teach me to be a defensive driver, teach people not to drive recklessly.

The world must cater to me, I refuse to be proactive.

Still in Poe's law territory, here. Maybe he's joking? Maybe he's just ignorant? Who knows? It's a wacky fun-house world we live in!

Just, step back, think about this, maybe do a little reading. Most rapes are not committed by a stranger in the bushes, they're committed by acquaintances, friends and family members. So in the first place, as El Mach says, they may not even know they're committing rape, and if they understood that they were committing rape, they might hold back, if perhaps out of shame rather than guilt. Secondly, and I think more importantly, other people will have a clearer understanding that what these human-shaped accumulations of diseased tissue (and that's what they are, let's get that straight, category errors are not an excuse) did was rape, and will be less willing to defend or condone their actions. This will aid convictions, will increase the likelihood of bystander intervention, and will also attach a greater stigma to date rape and similar assaults, discouraging potential date rapists. "She was drunk" will be more readily understood as an argument for the prosecution, and not the defence.

You mockingly suggest that teaching people not to drive recklessly will improve road safety. But that's part of how the problem of drink driving has been addressed, by instructing people as to the risks and consequences of drinking while intoxicated. To be found drink-driving is now understood to be very dangerous, and is considered a source of embarrassment and shame, which will help to deter even those with an under-developed capacity for risk-evaluation. So what makes you think that, at least in the very broadest outlines, we might not apply something similar here?

 

[cardgame]

Yes, I am ignorant of the fact that rape is wrong, because my mother never told me not to.



But hey, guess what? I still don't rape people because I'm not a monster.

Some things are innate to human morality. Murder and theft are wrong and illegal everywhere without any cultural influences.

 

[Traitorfish]

I expanded my point in an edit. The edit should also clarify what I meant when I used the phrase "ignorant".

 

[Manfred Belheim]

If you can't even tell when you're raping someone, then you've missed out on a hell of a lot more education than just the "what rape is" lessons. The whole reason rape is bad is that you're behaving selfishly and forcing your desires and wants on someone else who doesn't share them and will be hurt or damaged by your actions. If you can't even tell you're doing that to someone, you basically have no interpersonal skills or empathic capability whatsoever. You're either a psychopath or you were raised in isolation from other human beings.

The same doesn't apply to drink driving at all because there are no blatantly obvious effects on other people that your actions will have. If you drive home from the pub after 5 pints on a regular basis because you think you feel fine, and you're sure nothing bad will happen, and nothing bad DOES happen for 20 years, then you're essentially proved right in your beliefs. It's only when you step back and look at the statistics that you can see it is a bad thing, but that isn't immediately obvious to any one individual. People are inherently bad at assimilating statistical evidence and big-picture analyses and will tend to go with the bias of personal experience all the time. Turning the opinion of a whole society against something that is only really obvious from the big picture is a big job and takes some effort.

Whereas raping someone isn't something you do with the mindset of "this is fine, nothing bad will happen", and where nothing bad does happen most of the time. It's obvious in pretty much each and every case that you've just harmed someone. By personal experience. So the two things don't work the same way.

 

[Borachio]

"Hey, babe, how about we get it on tonight?"
"No, I really don't want to."
"Aw, come on, you know how much I want to."
"No, I really don't want to."
"But... but... I brought you dinner didn't I? I brought you that fancy wine you like. Come on, have another drink."
"No, I really don't want to."
"Hey, loosen up. Relax, why don't you?"

....

Write the rest yourself. I'm sure your imagination is up to it.

 

[cardgame]

"No means no. Goodnight."

 

[Borachio]

There's that Elizabethan joke about two negatives making a positive.

"No, no, no, no," she said. Meaning "Yes, yes."

This is a really, really old problem.

Miscommunication coupled with wishful thinking can lead to an accusation of rape, unfortunately.