Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Bananas currently give +1 yield, +1 improved, and +1 from a building, same as cows and other resources.
Jungles: banana vs basic food
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
Ahriman
Tyrant
But you can build them on jungles, so they get the science bonus of the underlying feature.
Also, not all resources are equal, because farms and mines get freshwater bonuses from early techs, while camps, plantations, and pastures do not.
Bananas are fine if jungles are fixed (pantheon belief, sicence bonus).
Also, not all resources are equal, because farms and mines get freshwater bonuses from early techs, while camps, plantations, and pastures do not.
Bananas are fine if jungles are fixed (pantheon belief, sicence bonus).
My preference would be jungles with +2 food, few bananas, and the pantheon belief removed.
There should be costs/benefits to jungles. Jungles limit the ability to produce more than 2 food so growth is limited. But they can provide a big science benefit later on and that should stay.
I agree that too many bananas makes it too easy to build a super specialist city. You should have to make an effort with caravans and such to build such a city.
There should be costs/benefits to jungles. Jungles limit the ability to produce more than 2 food so growth is limited. But they can provide a big science benefit later on and that should stay.
I agree that too many bananas makes it too easy to build a super specialist city. You should have to make an effort with caravans and such to build such a city.
Either 1 or 2 works for me. I think the jungle advantage is mostly a late game issue (for science anyway) so i dont think you have to get rid of that. As far as the removal goes. Would it be possible for the worker to start the process and be able to move the next turn? like he starts the fires, moves, then a few turns later the jungle dissapears.
Maybe the pantheon belief could be changed to be like a celts Druidic Lore. It would be +(n) culture for city next to unimproved jungle tile and more if next to multiple jungle tiles. i think that would balance it
Maybe the pantheon belief could be changed to be like a celts Druidic Lore. It would be +(n) culture for city next to unimproved jungle tile and more if next to multiple jungle tiles. i think that would balance it
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
The pantheon belief (as seen in 3.1.7) is cool and full of flavor, but broken. No other belief can easily give 5-10 (up to 36 theoretically) extra yield per city - in multiple cities! More than 10 jungle tiles per city is way more realistic than 5+ fishing boats (comparing it to god of the sea). This is worsened by the fact that jungles are useful tiles anyway (2 yield as standard), comparable to grassland or hills - not to talk about the science.
--> Ahriman's point is perfectly valid!
Generally, I think it's ok for jungle to have 2 base yield just as any other "good" terrain (plains, grassland, hills,...). Tundra and Desert should have reduced yields.
On a related topic:
I find it weird that jungles don't seem to ever give any production in 3.1.7. There are loads of useful materials that can be harvested from jungle, from wood to leather. Jungles are super-food-heavy as of now with 2 base food, farm improvements and bananas.
What about removing the option to farm jungles, but give them lumbermills instead?
We'd still have growth potential/surplus food from bananas, and swidden-style agriculture can still be represented by farming the plains left after chopping. If done riverside, those tiles can create additional surplus food as well (at 3
1
), or we get it from farming the grassland that is left after clearing a nearby marsh. Or fish, or granaries, or ... --> There is little risk to found a jungle city without growth potential!
Instead of jungles being an exact copy of grassland (see below), we'd get an unique terrain type in terms of possible yields.
Suggestion:
Jungle: 2 base
+1 from lumber mill
+1
from trading post
(This combination of yields + improvements is not available right now)
Grassland / Flood Plains: 2 base
+1 from farm
+1 from trading post
(Right now, jungles give those yields as well - boring!)
Forest: 11 base
+1 from lumber mill
+1 from trading post
Plains: 11 base
+1 from farm
+1 from trading post
(I'm the one vote for "other", BTW, but I'd also remove the pantheon belief and delay science just as Ahriman suggested)
EDIT: The pantheon belief could unlock the option to build farms on jungle in my version, making those tiles super-versatile (all yields possible)!
--> Ahriman's point is perfectly valid!
Generally, I think it's ok for jungle to have 2 base yield just as any other "good" terrain (plains, grassland, hills,...). Tundra and Desert should have reduced yields.
On a related topic:
I find it weird that jungles don't seem to ever give any production in 3.1.7. There are loads of useful materials that can be harvested from jungle, from wood to leather. Jungles are super-food-heavy as of now with 2 base food, farm improvements and bananas.
What about removing the option to farm jungles, but give them lumbermills instead?
We'd still have growth potential/surplus food from bananas, and swidden-style agriculture can still be represented by farming the plains left after chopping. If done riverside, those tiles can create additional surplus food as well (at 3
1), or we get it from farming the grassland that is left after clearing a nearby marsh. Or fish, or granaries, or ... --> There is little risk to found a jungle city without growth potential!Instead of jungles being an exact copy of grassland (see below), we'd get an unique terrain type in terms of possible yields.
Suggestion:
Jungle: 2
base +1
from lumber mill+1
from trading post(This combination of yields + improvements is not available right now)
Grassland / Flood Plains: 2
base +1
from farm+1
from trading post(Right now, jungles give those yields as well - boring!)
Forest: 1
1 base +1
from lumber mill+1
from trading postPlains: 1
1 base+1
from farm+1
from trading post(I'm the one vote for "other", BTW, but I'd also remove the pantheon belief and delay science just as Ahriman suggested)
EDIT: The pantheon belief could unlock the option to build farms on jungle in my version, making those tiles super-versatile (all yields possible)!
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
@Tomice
The tundra, desert, and jungle beliefs are similar I think?
The tundra, desert, and jungle beliefs are similar I think?
My last game, 3 jungle tiles in my civ, 10 fishing boat tiles. That was the communitas map.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
But tundra is "bad" terrain, providing only 1 base yield. Jungle isn't!
(Desert should be more like tundra IMO, but that topic is currently debated elsewhere).
I also wouldn't compare faith per tile directly to food per tile.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
I meant per city (post above edited for clarification). A single city can have access to a theoretical max of 36 tiles IIRC, of which many can be jungle (and often are). What was the biggest number of fish tiles you've claimed with a single city? More than three is rare.
EDIT: sorry for double post!
Ahriman
Tyrant
This is the key point. The tundra and desert beliefs are ok because those terrain are "bad", and most tiles aren't worth working otherwise.
That is not the case for jungle anymore. Jungle tiles are as good as grassland or plains.
These tiles are much weaker than jungle tiles though.
stackpointer
King
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2013
- Messages
- 809
Does making the jungle pantheon faith generating instead sound good to anyone? Turn the +1 into a +1
pantheon instead and make jungle tiles 2?
into a +1 pantheon instead and make jungle tiles 2?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Not really, it still doesn't solve the problem.
Suggestion:
Jungle: 2
+1
+1
(This combination of yields + improvements is not available right now)
Grassland / Flood Plains: 2
+1
+1
(Right now, jungles give those yields as well - boring!)
Forest: 1
+1
+1
Plains: 1
+1
+1
I know the old hands will have the most say in this matter, but Tomice's suggestion is really appealing to me. More variety and choices are better.
As for the beliefs impact... I think that more powerful beliefs are better for desert and tundra, because those tiles are just so relatively terrible. Starting your civ in a sea of unforested tundra feels like a death sentence without some possible "out" via a religious belief.
However, I think we're talking at cross purposes in this thread. Belief balance is a separate issue from tile yields, for the most part.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Thal will have the most say in the matter
I would be fine with allowing lumbermills on jungles. Then, they're basically grassland, but they are more flexible but with slower improvement build times.
However, then there is really no justification for a jungle-yield belief or a science bonus.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
Hey! I've been around here since this mod merely consisted of a few simple yield changes for Civ5 vanilla 1.0
@Ahriman: Farms would no longer be available for jungles in my suggestion, so the flexibility would stay approx. the same.
In the rare occasion that there's no mountain or forest around you'd profit a lot from lumbermills in jungle. But this is about as rare as a total food-shortness, where the current version of jungles has a similar advantage.
Forests could still chop for hammers rather than for plains only, and would have extra production inherently on mills.
Jungles would have plantations options on them (resources), that forests would have to chop for when they appear there, would take longer to improve, and then offer a late(r) science bonus. I think that sounds different enough. But farms + villages would work for me also if mills are too odd.
Also of note: archaeologists chop jungles for antiquity sites (this is less annoying than taking out a chateau temporarily.... but still). I'm not sure that makes much sense. They dig holes, not clear cut forests.
Jungles would have plantations options on them (resources), that forests would have to chop for when they appear there, would take longer to improve, and then offer a late(r) science bonus. I think that sounds different enough. But farms + villages would work for me also if mills are too odd.
Also of note: archaeologists chop jungles for antiquity sites (this is less annoying than taking out a chateau temporarily.... but still). I'm not sure that makes much sense. They dig holes, not clear cut forests.
albie_123
Modding In Secret
I don't like these suggestions, for the reason that I still believe jungles should either be as good as or worse than grassland and these are making them better than grassland while removing their unique feel.
As I see it, lumbermills are to forest what banana plantations are to jungle. They enhance the tile in a unique way that can't be done anywhere else.
As I see it, lumbermills are to forest what banana plantations are to jungle. They enhance the tile in a unique way that can't be done anywhere else.
