Jungles: banana vs basic food

[Seek]

I wasn't aware that farms can be built on jungles without chopping them. Seems a little weird to me (and perhaps too powerful), tbh - maybe if we remove that option we won't have a need for this debate?

Again, I don't think vanilla balance is bad. I've never seen any call to change jungle balance on any thread in the General Discussions or Strategy forums (and those forums see calls to change all sorts of stuff that isn't imbalanced!).

 

[Ahriman]

Again, I don't think vanilla balance is bad. I've never seen any call to change jungle balance on any thread in the General Discussions or Strategy forums

But GEM significantly boosts jungles by allowing farms and plantations and camps to be built in them without chopping. They're not too strong in vanilla. We introduced the problem.

 

[Seek]

We introduced the problem.

Indeed, that was my point.

 

[mitsho]

Random Thought: Can we make Jungle Farms exempt from the bonuses other farms receive?

I don't think the extra yields for camps are a big problem (?) and plantations can cut down jungle for all I care (that ability on that tech should have some value). If we want to keep jungle slash-and-burn farms for realism sake, make them weaker in the mid-to-late game.

Totally off?

 

[Zai]

What other bonuses (religious or other) do grasslands get that jungles don't?

Completely irrelevant. Don't think of the bonus being from jungles but from religion. You can't say jungles need to be nerfed because they are (arguably) better than grasslands when you waste a belief slot on them. Just because the other beliefs don't specifically effect grasslands doesn't mean they aren't somewhat balanced. It's like saying deserts need a nerf because of Petra.

 

[Ahriman]

You can't say jungles need to be nerfed because they are (arguably) better than grasslands when you waste a belief slot on them.

I'm saying that the belief needs to be removed, because given how jungles are stronger than in vanilla, the belief is too powerful.

The fact that you call removing a belief a nerf to jungles rather undermines your claim that belief effects shouldn't be considered as part of jungle balancing.

 

[albie_123]

I agree with Ahriman and Seek. We tried changing Jungles. I think, overall, it was unnecessary, but a worthy trial. Let's revert to vanilla values and see how we fare.

 

[Thalassicus]

The capability to farm jungle or get a belief for +1 existed mainly to balance low jungle 1 yield in the Gem early game. If we set jungles to 2 the farms will disappear, and the food belief will change back to culture.

 

[Ahriman]

If we set jungles to 2 the farms will disappear, and the food belief will change back to culture.

A culture boost is still going to be too strong. Culture is more rare in BNW than it was in G&K, even +1 culture is significant.

We should keep the beliefs on terrain-type X only for terrain types that are actually inferior. If we have a design where jungle is not inferior, then it should not have a belief that boosts every jungle tile (this can be dozens of tiles, making it much more powerful than any other pantheon belief).

[I'm actually a bit concerned about the various culture increases that have been added to CEP on culture buildings: if we hold everything else constant but increase culture income, doesn't that make a tourism victory much harder, because there is more culture to overcome?]

 

[Thalassicus]

My thinking for jungles:

1. Start with vanilla settings.
3. Increase the frequency of marshes, and let stone appear there. This will reduce food in jungle areas without actually changing jungle food.
2. Add two incentives to erase jungle - faster clearing and delayed science. Clearing jungles makes the jungle pantheon less useful.

We've got something for everyone. There's less food in jungle areas (poll option A), 2-food jungles (option B), and delayed science with a less important pantheon (option C).

@Ahriman
Cep has less culture income from culture buildings in the first 4 eras of the game. We're behind until opera houses, then start to catch up, equaling vanilla culture around the time we unlock tourism victory with Archaeology. I complete tourism victory in the early atomic era like vanilla. We have a modest culture advantage if we have resources for theater costumes, but we're slower than vanilla without those resources.

I finish my tourism victories by conquering the high culture players. They usually have low military strength. This is the same in vanilla and the mod, and culture doesn't help defend against tanks.

 

[mitsho]

Culture was scaled up in GEM, right? It's now scaled down for BNW's Great Works again. If a Great Work gives 2 culture, a city with 6+ jungle tiles does seem pretty pretty strong.

Where am I going wrong with the math?

Tbh, I'm quite dissatisfied with the early options for beliefs anyways, it gets repetitive quite fast (depending on your strategy, there is not much choice). I'm not sure what the best alternative yield for jungles would be? Gold would make them trading powerhouses as well, faith I would avoid if possible (snowballs too fast), production seems counterintuitive to the idea behind jungles (though that might be a reasoning for it) and science may be too strong anywas... Then again, we could rename it and tie it to bananas or can we make it only true for unimproved jungle tiles?

 

[Ahriman]

We have less culture income than vanilla in the first 4 eras of the game.

What sources of culture have lower values in CEP than the did in BNW? I haven't noticed this. When you say vanilla, do you mean vanilla Civ5 or vanilla BNW?

In BNW the ampitheaters and opera houses only have +1 culture.

If CEP has reduced early culture income, then there is even more reason not to add a ton of early culture from a particular belief.

It's now scaled down for BNW's Great Works again. If a Great Work gives 2 culture, a city with 6+ jungle tiles does seem pretty pretty strong.

Where am I going wrong with the math?

As far as I can see you aren't.

 

[Thalassicus]

Everyone seems to call unmodded BNW "vanilla" now.

Old
3 monuments
1 jungle pantheon

Now
2 monuments
1 jungle pantheon

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks.

So the monument change is the only nerf, and the ampitheater, opera house, and museum give more culture? Are there any other changes? I thought I remembered some but I'm not sure.

The jungle pantheon isn't quite comparable, because we have made dramatic increases in the value of jungle by allowing farms and plantations to be constructed in them without chopping. I still think we're better off not having any jungle pantheon, just as it would be crazy to have a pantheon that boosted all forests, all plains, all grasslands, or all hills.

 

[Seek]

My thinking for jungles:

1. Start with vanilla settings.
3. Increase the frequency of marshes, and let stone appear there. This will reduce food in jungle areas without actually changing jungle food.
2. Add two incentives to erase jungle - faster clearing and delayed science. Clearing jungles makes the jungle pantheon less useful.

We've got something for everyone. There's less food in jungle areas (poll option A), 2-food jungles (option B), and delayed science with a less important pantheon (option C).

This sounds good to me.

The jungle-culture pantheon, while certainly good, isn't particularly OP in BNW. I don't think it needs changing, personally. Though is there higher jungle frequency in the Communitas map?

Unmodded BNW has monuments at 2 culture, btw, same as ever.

 

[shaken]

Everyone seems to call unmodded BNW "vanilla" now.

Unmodded BNW
3 monuments
1 jungle pantheon

Cep
2 monuments
1 jungle pantheon

Monuments in unmodded BNW give 2 .

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Monument_(Civ5)

Edit: sorry, Seek beat me to it.

 

[Ahriman]

So, CEP has just increased culture income? Then my concern re tourism seems valid.

 

[Tomice]

My thinking for jungles:

1. Start with vanilla settings.
3. Increase the frequency of marshes, and let stone appear there. This will reduce food in jungle areas without actually changing jungle food.
2. Add two incentives to erase jungle - faster clearing and delayed science. Clearing jungles makes the jungle pantheon less useful.

We've got something for everyone. There's less food in jungle areas (poll option A), 2-food jungles (option B), and delayed science with a less important pantheon (option C).

Looks good!
But which improvements do you intend to allow without removing the jungle? I still think lumber mills make more sense in jungle than farms, and you're about to reduce jungle food anyway.

 

[Seek]

Looks good!
But which improvements do you intend to allow without removing the jungle? I still think lumber mills make more sense in jungle than farms, and you're about to reduce jungle food anyway.

My understanding is that no extra improvements will be allowed.

 

[MortalD]

Would go for 1 food and rare bananas. So "a" combined with "b".
As I see it, jungles are hazardous/harsh early on but offer more as the civilization progress.
Something like +1 upon discovery of "medicine" ( or with hospital ) combined with science bonus from university would make interesting dilemma early on as whatever to chop them down for faster start or preserve for later game.

That would be even historically accurate right?