Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities

If they aren't already in that religion, I've always thought that they won't convert their own cities. Since Sal and Boudicca seem to digg Theology, I am unsure if they even have the possibility to convert their own cities to a different religion (hinduism).

Theology just means that no other civ can spread a (non-state) religion in your cities. If you gift a missionary to a civ with theology, the AI will use it, and hopefully use it in one of his own cities. To be able to win a diplomatic victory with AP, all civs must have at least one city with the AP religion, they don't all have to be full members (i.e. convert to the AP religion).
 
Patched to 3.13. Normally I would finish a game at the version I started it, but it's been a while for this one.

Patching resulted in at least one minor bug so far. Hope it doesn't get worse. Plan is to finish the game between Jan 22-31.
 
Theology does in fact allow you to use non-state missionaries on your own cities.
This is new to BtS apparently
 
Hey bro, thanks for writing this thread.

I read approximately the first half of this thread and now I have basically gone from an okay Emperor player (who relied on nothing but CE and hardly ever used gp) to basically the level of play that is required for being successful on Deity.

I currently have a Deity game going on a standard sized pangaea with Stalin of Russia (I picked random for the Civ). It's currently about 270 AD and I have 4 cities that are pretty close together (in other words I don't have a very huge land area but there is still some room to expand, and I have basically reached equilibrium with the AI when it comes to tech. Currently I'm working my way towards Liberalism, having just lightbulbed Paper (which no other AI has). I think my skill and thinking in the game has increased alot. Thanks man! :goodjob:
 
Although I can appreciate the fact you can zoom in and "figure out" exactly how much culture the city is producing per turn, I would find such a task much more tedious than actually building a small stack and razing it.
 
kcmarkwell said:
Although I can appreciate the fact you can zoom in and "figure out" exactly how much culture the city is producing per turn, I would find such a task much more tedious than actually building a small stack and razing it.

Of course your right imo. Well, if this is possible at last. But if that city is on the other end of the world, in the middle of a hughe empire protected be an insane army, this is not soooooo easy I guess...
 
Gift missionaries and win through ap? You can even gift missionaries in a caravel if needed(if you don't have open borders).
Actually, ive tried that and you cant gift the missionary(since its on a ship) and if you gift the caravel your missionary will still be under your control except the AI will be sailing it around. If nothing else, it provides some comic relief but unfortunately it wont let you spread religions/corporations that way.

Only way vs closed borders is to gift them a city with the religion/corporation present(obviously against theology you could use spies, but unfortunately that wont work against mercantilism as when they pop back in it will cancel your corporation since its foreign :().
 
can't believe that a thread brought me the 1st domi victory on immortal pre 1600. And that with a civ. I wouldn't have played on that lvl. to start with... And that with a start out of which I wouldn't bet even on space. Was even better than when I discovered sumerians.

excellent read. And thanks alot for reminding the obvious of having the discipline of following your goals - in gp generation and in general gameplay :p

and some side notes - despite lacking immunity to 1st strikes and withdrawl chances, the catas fare quite well against longbows. I mean, with c2 I had somethin' around 66% chances against a nonprotective civ. longbow. And with stables, barracks, 1 settled gg(had izzy settle her 2nd city 4 tiles away from constantinopole and in the other 3 direction I had ocean so... the decission wasn't hard) + theocracy, after the 1st win you can get him to c3 where you have around ~75% odds I think on a flat city.
Anyway, with 3 stacks of 8-9 catas I managed to get 3 of freddie's core cities in the 1st 2 turns of the war - one was 2 tiles away in enemy teritory so needed 2 turns(with spies obviously). One being placed on hill, hurt, but... just bring more.

This allowed me to crank them after the last gs poped for edu. and I was pretty sure I'll win the race for liberalism(I picked economics out of greed which was a dumb decission, but at that time I though I'd finish the game at infantry, not at rifles). Frankly, when everyone is ~around nationalism/education, unless you have some charismatic ai that warred before(to allow them a c2/formation pike via theocracy/settled gg/barracks/vassalage) or an aggresive one(same reason for barracks/theo/vassalage) there's basically nothing that can stop that unit for quite a long time. You lose 2-3/per city(the fortified prolly c2 pike hurts for sure...) but you conquer them like no tommorow. Even if they'd go nationalism->mil. trad.(though they seldom do) the cata. still is on par with a cuirassier plus with the right blitz, they hardly get the time required to field them.

Another thing - despite the fact that you'd lose the -50% bonus for stationary, I found that it's 10 times better to send the spy in only 1 turn before the cavarly charge(that when you send only 1 spy). Having 3 cities as objective I couldn't afford to have pairs for all 3 cities and enough kept in reserve for the next ones(again, the start was horrid on a very crappy and extremely long and narrow peninsula, so even madrid - my new capital and with engineering the spy needed ~8 turns to get to the front line - I had about 12 spies, but he had more then 12 cities...). Why I say that - you don't use the spies to sabotage some worthless tile or destroy his granary in some obscure city for a hideous number of eps like the ai does. All you care is having enough ep for probably 5-6 city revolts plus the initial counterintelligence. And with 1 spy I noticed that the risk of having him get caught while he sits in the city waiting for the 5 turns bonus(eventually have him caught right at the turn when you want to attack) simply ain't worth the 2-300 eps won. I only wait 5 turns when using GW and gs for stealing techs but otherwise... either pair(or trio... yeah, I'm paranoid, even though I don't mind loading anyway, but for some cheesy reason of telling myself that I'm doing it for a fair reason like having all 3 caught :p) and then, yes, wait 5 turns, or, if solo, just send him 1 turn before and pray(though I hate using single spies, but still... sometimes you have to...).
 
I'm almost done participating in ABigCivFan deity challenge. Next: finishing Justinian's university.

In the meantime, take a look at the challenge to see entries by many of the best CIV players. My game there has three different highlights compared to this thread:

1) CE instead of FE

2) Surviving AI SoD of 45 medieval units at 1 AD

3) Developing a powerful economy despite botched early expansion
 
Pre Update

Welcome back to Justinian and the deities. It's been awhile and I start my 1400 AD turn with a full review of the situation. Since sharing my thoughts is kind of a trademark for the University, I decided to write them down. Well, turns out thinking is a lot faster than writing :lol:


First thing: resource check. Although often uncredited, resources are massively important for the success or failure of any economic strategy.

There are 11 health resources in CIV, 9 happy, and three mid-ground. There are also 3 more happy resources from lategame wonders.

In health, we have three out of three granary ones (corn, wheat, import rice), three out of three harbor (fish, crab, import clam), four out of four supermarket (sheep, deer, pig, import cow), and import bananas from grocer ones. We have the other three grocer resources as well, the mid-ground wine, sugar, and spices, the latter two imported.

In happy, we have three out of four marketplace (fur, ivory, silk) and our expanding culture will net us whales in 2 turns. Forge ones are not that good, gold is abundant, but silver is nowhere to be found on the planet, and there are only two gem mines, in Arabia, the extra one traded to Boudica. Finally, the odd ones: we've got incense, however dyes are Malinese monopoly and I'm not trading with world villain #1. Then again, Byzantines get only half the effect of dye, the other half is from horse and we have plenty of them.

Recap: with proper infrastructure for our tech level, we get 15 happy faces and 18 health (21 in ports). Add base for 19/20, aquaduct, colloseum, state religion, AP hindu temple, and we hit 22/22, plus more for sea, fresh water, christian/taoist temples (we have holy cities on those), state cathedrals, occasional forests and of course the Byzantine Hippodrume when we really need to combat unhappiness, and you see sticking to FE won't be problematic in the long run, if we go that road.

That is, in the perfect city. As it is, I need to run 10% culture rate to combat emancipation unhappiness in Constatinople so that the GP generation schedule is met (more on that later). Constatinople is building a marketplace and with whales that's 5 more happy faces in six tuns...but six turns are too much on normal speed deity. One of the unhappy faces in Constatinople is certainly Justinian's own!

There is our first priority: more infrastructure. Three ways to get it:

- universal suffrage buying isn't a bargain at 3 for 1, because towns don't produce commerce three times the hammer rate of workshops, and also the Byzantine empire has only three decently cottaged cities.

- slavery is alright, but will greatly interfere with GP production. And if we can't mass produce GPs we'd better trade for Democracy and adopt emancipation and not bother with big cities.

- good ole hammers. Never out of fashion. Caste is on, SP can be on, levees can be started right away, factories and coal plants can be next tech. A Caste/SP workshop is 4 hammers now, 8 with forge/powered factory. Compare to a village, 4 commerce after 15 turns of investment under emancipation. Workshops win hands down. Even for research: workshops are still better at 8 slider independent beakers v 7 when library, university, and observatory are present. It will take towns, and Free Speech towns at that, to beat this research rate, and of course towns can't beat the infrastructure rate of caste/sp workshops.

State Property has two downsides. Right now, we get a lot out of trade routes. Tomorrow it's the corporations. The game is now patched to 3.13 and corporation maintenance is manageable. Corporations are a new thing and increase the importance of resources even more. I take the time to review them. The "food based" ones (Mills, Sushi, Standard Ethanol) compete each other in a vicious circle. Assuming we'll be able to buy off extra resources from the likes of Saladin, Mills will net 6-8 food, SE will net ~14 beakers, and Sushi will net ~8 food and 30+ culture. Sushi is definitely good, and it is also researchable right away (Medicine).

So there is priority #2: a GM for Sushi. We'll get back to this in a bit.

The mining corps aren't nearly as good for us. They compete as a three-pronged star, with Mining Inc in the center fighting everyone else. As I said, we don't have many ores in our empire, despite its huge size. I'm still kind of surprised how we got about to winning deity with one Iron resource half a continent away and one bronze resource that's not even on our landmass!

Precious ores aren't much better, only four golds. We also lack stone and have a couple of marbles. Coal and Aluminium are unknown as of yet, although Coal tech can be traded for right away. We'll probably have a few. Overall, mining corps aren't that impressive under the circumstances, not to mention they require either far away techs or great engineers. We can't use Caste to guarantee a GE, and the wisdom of using one for a corp at this point of the game is doubtful. There are some great wonders to be built yet, and there are a couple of very expensive and powerful national wonders to be built yet too.

Back to trade routes. On a sidenote, the patching bugged all currently built custom houses by not updating them to 100% bonus. Oh well, there goes all the effort to build custom houses for academy/bureaucracy synergy in Constantinople and Numidian.

Back to trade routes, take three. We've got 17 cities, 68 trade routes under FM. Out of those, 33 are foreign. We only get one trade route per foreign city, and Saladin, Ceaser, Boudica, and Suleiman have 33 cities in total. The other 35 routes are internal. Unlike foreign, internal trade allows a city to feature multiple times. Consequently most of these 35 routes are to Constatinople (biggest city, therefore biggest base value) or to Greenland isle cities Angle/Laodicea (+100% for oversea routing).

Conclusion: switching to SP will kill 17 internal routes and will reroute 1 from bureaucratic capital. That's about 40 commerce less. On the other hand SP will kill city distance maintenance (currently 30ish, 40ish adjusted for inflation) and reduce civic cost by ~15 adjusted for inflation. Since we're saving gold with SP, it's fair to multiply the lost commerce by the gold modifiers, which are pitifully low, with only three banks and few market/grocer empire-wide. So we get what we lose, and we add food on workshops/watermills and 10% prod bonus. The switch to SP is greenlighted. It's so cool to be Spiritual :goodjob:

Next: eyeing the competition - they also get resources and trade routes
 
Pre Update, Part II


Let me tell you about our friends, deity AIs. They start with a big discount on food stores and buildings. They start with workers. Then, as time goes, their discounts progress. In 1400 AD their building cost is below 50% of normal and their food store discount is nearly as much. Between such discounts and mass-spammed improvements, the rule of thumb is: deities have all buildings and deity cities are at the maximum size permitted by health/happy caps.

What does that mean? Well, it means that, unlike human cities, deity cities are not dependable on the presence of city infrastructure. They have it all. They are also not dependable on growing. They insta-grow as long as they stay below cap.

What remains is the two other factors: caps and land+improvements. Those are the only things that prevent deities to tech to Future tech near-instantly. While it is true they are fast to improve their lands, the AIs can't combo well land improvements. So that's kind of barrier one, if the lesser one.

The greater "barrier" are caps. For most of the game, that would be the health cap actually because the AI runs Hereditary Rule and maintains tons of units. Luckily, the human player has some power over AI caps. Apart from HR, caps are mainly derived from resources. That's where diplomacy kicks in. Enemies must be denied resources. Look at Mansa: no resource trades, not even open borders. I've completely isolated him.

Let's look at the other opponents. Overall, they are the typical AI mob; average landmass, few resources, impotent resource trading. In 1400 AD, the Byzantine empire has all health resources and all but one and a half happy resources on the map, the AIs would be glad to have half that.

Moreover, we're the biggest trader on the international resource market.

res2.jpg


As seen, trading is with Ceaser and Suleiman whenever possible. Some of the resources I get from them Boudica/Saladin can offer too, but it's better to boost the two friendly AIs because each beaker they get out of higher caps will come back to me via tech trades outside WFYABTA.

That being said, I notice Ceaser has quite the big cities and is not running HR. He's suffering war weariness too. Also, he already has techs on me I can trade for in the future. Finally, if I go domination Saladin and Ceaser are obvious targets, weak as they are. I decide to cut Ceaser's happiness and give him useless health for a while. I do the same to Boudica. She's under HR, but her war weariness is even bigger and she's lost many units in the war v Mansa. I send a freed happy resource to Suleiman, canceling the sheep deal. Suleiman is our best ally, but he's not a pushover like Ceaser/Sala, or even Boudica lately, and a tiny bit of trimming is in order.

Then we get to trade routes. With relatively small empires, the AIs get a huge boost by the 17 trade routes the Byzantines provide to each of them. To be exact, this turn we'll generate 273 commerce for the AIs, multiplied by their tax and science (or espionage) buildings. Since they're deity AIs, they have them all, so that's +100% for gold and +75% for science. On top of that, everything is cheaper for them, techs, upgrades, so we're really helping them out.

I let this be for the time being. Why? Mansa. I let the other AIs to get more out of trade routes, tech trades, I gift them techs and bribe them with techs, all because Mansa must be stopped. So how is it one lowly AI, left without friends, without trade, warring for 1000 years v multiple opponents, is still the single most powerful AI in the game?

It's the land. Lots of grass, lots of high commerce resources like dye which deity AI can cultivate early. It's also financial. Because the AI does poor choices in land improvement, financial tends to boost it more than it boosts the human, and we all know financial is a top tier trait for the human player. The AI however works a lot sea tiles, tends to build more cottages when financial, tends to workshop over towns :crazyeye: less when financial, while it completely fails to (ab)use farms/workshops the way a human FE player (which is us in this game) can.

Mansa is researching Radio and already building the Broadway somewhere. No one is even close to him on that tech beeline. He's also doing well in the wars v Boudica and Ceaser. His only weakness seems to be ignoring both the Assembly Line path and the Railroad path.

Which brings us to priority #3: "How to hinder Mansa?" and the logical answer "with Infantries and spies". He can't beat infantries without infantries or machine guns of his own, and I don't need gunpower-based siege to down his city defenses because of espionage. This is to be a limited war, goal is to nick a couple of cities from Mansa, hopefully Djenne one of them. Djenne's fall, with it being one of Mansa's three cultural uber cities, the Hindu holy city, and the SoL city, will be the end of Mansa's threat and will open the road to invading Saladin/Ceaser for a domination victory.

Espionage makes it as the next priority. Unlike science and tax, espionage can be generated by buildings alone. A full complement of espionage buildings produces 44/turn. With so many cities, the Byzantine empire could generate close to 1k espionage points/turn without bothering to run a single spy specialist or raising the slider mere 10%. Once again, it's the lacking city infrastructure, and, once again, the solution is to industrialize ASAP.

So, this is it. The Byzantines head to Assembly Line right away. Democracy/emancipation is postponed to a future point after decent city infrastructure is built and the infantry invasion window is capitalized on.

Constantinople won't produce a GP next turn. Instead, Washington will, running merchants in this last turn of GP generation. Washington already can produce a GM. On the turn after, Constantinople will pop a GP, running merchants. Still, chances are we won't get a GM yet, so in about a dozen turns the designated Globe/Park city will pop a GP and Constatinople will follow 1 turn later, running pure merchant pool this time around.
 
Pre Update, Part II

Then we get to trade routes. With relatively small empires, the AIs get a huge boost by the 17 trade routes the Byzantines provide to each of them. To be exact, this turn we'll generate 273 commerce for the AIs, multiplied by their tax and science (or espionage) buildings. Since they're deity AIs, they have them all, so that's +100% for gold and +75% for science. On top of that, everything is cheaper for them, techs, upgrades, so we're really helping them out.

Good post, many nice observations! How do you know you generate 273 commerce from the AIs this turn?

Can you tell the Import/export numbers at the Info Screen?
 
Good post, many nice observations! How do you know you generate 273 commerce from the AIs this turn?

Can you tell the Import/export numbers at the Info Screen?

Yes, from Demographics - Import. That's what they get. My gain is 161, with lower multipliers from buildings.
 
How many cities do you have at this point in the game? and would switching to Mercantilism and running 1 extra merchant specialist under representation, assuming you are already running representation be better than the current free market civic?

PS. I read you have 17 cities. 17x3 gold = 51 gold and 3 sience beakers if representation would make 51 beakers. Not a match for the 161 you are getting. StateProperty should be better.
 
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