Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities

[SnowlyWhite]

the ai has the same attitude as the governor of our cities? I mean, if his city reached the health cap, does he stop growth in that city or accepts to eat the pollution penality and keep growing?

also, from your experience: without any chokepoints, is a game on diety winnable? I mean, out of my various tries, the only times I got a shot was when I had spots to... I'd say "psychologically" landblock the ai(aka - they could've still expand behind my border line due to OB, but they usually seem to avoid it, especially if you're in good relations).

Otherwise... I was trying a start with pacal the other evening(good position, the uu definitelly helps alot with barbarians, expansive ain't imperialistic, but still meant I had workers at a decent rate and later on granaries) and well... huayna was simply expanding faster then literally I could produce settlers. With chopping and ruining the econ. and still seemed like only thing he builds is settlers. And I have no idea how you can win a cultural war when he gets all his buildings in all his cities.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

How many cities do you have at this point in the game? and would switching to Mercantilism and running 1 extra merchant specialist under representation, assuming you are already running representation be better than the current free market civic?

PS. I read you have 17 cities. 17x3 gold = 51 gold and 3 sience beakers if representation would make 51 beakers. Not a match for the 161 you are getting. StateProperty should be better.

Actually 17 x 6 is a match for 161 foreign trade because the lost foreign trade routes are substituted by internal routes, not as good, but 33 of them will sure pull off enough commerce to close the gap. Add in gpps and Merc isn't that bad at all. However, SP has food bonuses and FR/Merc don't.

 

[VirusMonster]

so I think Mercantilisim coupled with Representation is a really solid combo then... it could be better than free market...

I am talking about medieval era where you discover Economics. I was always undecided whether to switch to FreeMarket or not. In case of Representation, Mercantilisim seems to be clearly the better choice.

When you discover SP, you can switch to it, it is understood... you reduce distance maintenance, that alone could be enough reason. How much is maintenance reduced by switching to state property btw?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

the ai has the same attitude as the governor of our cities? I mean, if his city reached the health cap, does he stop growth in that city or accepts to eat the pollution penality and keep growing?

also, from your experience: without any chokepoints, is a game on diety winnable? I mean, out of my various tries, the only times I got a shot was when I had spots to... I'd say "psychologically" landblock the ai(aka - they could've still expand behind my border line due to OB, but they usually seem to avoid it, especially if you're in good relations).

Otherwise... I was trying a start with pacal the other evening(good position, the uu definitelly helps alot with barbarians, expansive ain't imperialistic, but still meant I had workers at a decent rate and later on granaries) and well... huayna was simply expanding faster then literally I could produce settlers. With chopping and ruining the econ. and still seemed like only thing he builds is settlers. And I have no idea how you can win a cultural war when he gets all his buildings in all his cities.

The AIs calculate a desired city size number and they grow/starve their cities to reach it. BtS (read Blake) lowered AI preferred size to allow them to run more cottages and production improvements. Back in Warlords, in midgame the AIs irrigated all over their towns.

Normally you have to block or rush. I managed to win ABCF first deity challenge despite no blocking/rushing, but it was needlessly complicated.

Cultural war...if you meant cultural vic, it's not about buildings but GAs and cottages. If you meant cultural border war, you can win one with less buildings when you understand the hidden dynamics of culture. There's an article in the strategy subforum. Put briefly, early/mid game borders are decided by a hidden value.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Almost done playing the turnset. Update ASAP.

 

[mystyfly]

...
BtS (read Blake) lowered AI preferred size to allow them to run more cottages and production improvements.
...
There's an article in the strategy subforum. Put briefly, early/mid game borders are decided by a hidden value.

Do you have those threads links?

Awaiting update at last

Awfully entertaining&educational game so far

 

[SnowlyWhite]

I imagine the culture on the tile is decided by a the culture of each of your cities influencing that tile multiplied by an smaller than 1 factor which should represent the distance.

However, the problem is that, even if I have only 1 city and he has only 1 influencing a certain, in 70-80% of the cases, he wins the cultural war, due to superior infrastucture; even if I build culture and well, probably optimize better then he does my production. That's what I was mainly asking; is normal to usually lose a cultural border war at this lvl?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

1400 AD - 1585 AD


And so Chairman Justinian and his Byzantine people embraced State Property and set upon building the workers' paradise. The landlords saw their lands confiscated, the peasants left the irrigations for the spreading workshops. Then the first factories appeared, and the first coal plants too, smoke rising above them and clouding the skies.

It was a time of communists. But it was also a time of saints. Nicaea was tasked to spread the state religion to all the faraway places of the empire that had not yet flocked under the one and true Hindu faith and also to one city each in the Celtic and Arabian lands. Apparently this angered the heathen gods and they sent a terrible monsoon to devastate pious Nicaea. But the heathen fools were soon to be vanquished...

Following this event we bribed Boudica to join our faith. Relations are now almost friendly (she also asked help: assembly line and I agreed). We also bribed Suleiman to switch to Hinduism yet again (he also asked to switch to Hereditary: first time I turned down an AI). In an attempt to stop his incessant flip backs to Judaism, we sent a galleon full of missionaries. Friendly relations = no WFYABTA = good.

Trading Steam Power in 1400 revealed two coals in our lands, one outside BFCs but the other inside our designated Ironworks city. Everyone but Boudica has coal. Later Physics revealed three Uranium, two in BFCs.

Washington produced a Great Engineer. Constantinople produced a GS, so no GM yet. I ran some scientists in Constatinople to speed up Assembly Line and polluted the GM pool, didn't get lucky, and another GS born. Finally the Globe/Park city produced a GM in 1545 AD.

By that time our MFG has skyrocketed.

However no AI but Mansa researched Rifles (??) and I had to do this myself. Mansa played smart and beelined Assembly immediately after completing his Mass Media beeline, instead of going the Steel path the way the other AIs had, and we both ended up with Infantry at the same time. Opportunity window closed. Well, see you at Tanks, Mansa!

 

[Rusten]

weeeeee! Best thread on the forum gets an update, can't wait for the next turnset. Only a shame that it's one step closer to its end. Planning on doing another game, or is it too much work? Really great play and extra kudos for running a FE, makes for an even more interesting end-game compared to CE. Late-game saves would also be truly appreciated if you can afford to upload them. Really impressive production graph, you might've taken out Mansa with sheer numbers alone at this point, but better to be safe than sorry if you feel you can make it to the next military tech sooner.

Also enjoyed the part where you wrote about thoughts and weighed pros and cons. I have an awful tendency to just go by the gut and play too fast without calculating and that can set me back quite a bit at times. Overall great write-up. I've been following this thread for months now and it's time to give some credit.

*joins the Unconquered Sun fanclub*

 

[Unconquered Sun]

1400 AD - 1585 AD, Part II

And so it came the time when the Byzantines saw the folly of the workshops and the factories and the plants. The beautiful Byzantine nature has been destroyed. In outcry, the Byzantines abandoned State Property and embraced tree-hugging, also known as Ecology. Eating a dish called "sushi" became the fashion of Justinian's court and soon everyone else was lining up for sushi.

Deciding where to found the corporation was a problem. Obviously the city will also house Wall Street. Both Numidian and New York were good sites being holy cities and all. Finally I settled for Numidian because I was time pressed to trade Medicine around and I didn't want to risk a random GM spawn of the Ottomans/Romans while my GM traveled the long way from Nicomedia to New York.

The other GPs: GE hurried Ironworks in Adrianople which quickly transformed into a production powerhouse and built the Pentagon. GS founded an academy in Washington, mostly because the city has tons of commerce and food for specialists, but also because the culture bonus was helpful in the war for the border cows. The other GS fueled electricity because we want tanks fast.

Immediately post-sushi we signed a ton of deals netting all extra resources for 8 food / 32 culture. Switching off SP was a must to found the corp, and to counter the food loss Ecology was adopted. Since our GP goals for the moment were met, Pacifism was abandoned for Organized Religion.

Seven turns later Sushi is widespread enough to substitute for the lost food on the workshops and more. Revolution again for Free Market (lower sushi's costs), Nationalism (start preparation for war), and Pacifism (most infra is built). Going down in Sushi maintenance and losing two high cost civics for two no cost ones (remember, we're a big empire, city #19 on the way) under late game inflation = 100s of gold saved per turn.

As I said a long time ago, we were running at 10% of our economic potential most of the game. Not anymore. We're still in FE, and despite everyone else running Emancipation we need 0% slider. We're close to the point when we'll be the total tech leader. We also have the production potential to defeat Mansa even if we have to fight at equal tech level.

The tech situation:

Mansa also has Mass Media on us, but we have the entire Steel - Railroads - Combustion line on him. Seems his tanks will be late for the rendezvous.

Suleiman is ready to attack Mansa for Electricity. Boudica signed peace with Mansa some time ago, then she got "too much on her hands". We had a Def Pact at the time and I didn't care, I only hoped she tries Mansa again, but kind of expected her to backstab Ceaser. She did in 1560 AD. IMHO she is up for a beating as Ceaser has all his military on the continent, unlike her, has had better techs, and had Assembly earlier. But to make things even more interesting, Saladin has "too much on his hands" now! I bet he's stabbing poor Julius too, with medieval foot units at that! Probably smart on Sala's side as it is well known that machine guns have a harder time hitting mailed macemen than rifled infantry. Anyhow, just to be extrasafe, I sent an airship to spy on Sala's activities.

Speaking of spies, Mansa has some in my territory and I'm regularly infiltrating him to up the costs of whatever he's after (he has no success for now). Saladin tried to be sneaky too, sending two privateers first to us and then to the bottom of the ocean.

Annoyingly, more bugs hit us. The Apostolitic Palace is like gone, after so much effort to spread it to everyone. The Hindu buildings not only stopped giving extra hammers, but started giving negative hammers in some cities!! Including the Ironworks city and the HE city!!!! Grrrr.

Cities

Spoiler :

Ironworks

Globe/Park

Empire

Spoiler :

 

[Unconquered Sun]

1400 AD - 1585 AD, last bit

A close up of dealing with Emancipation unhappiness in a large city

Conclusion: War is likely the outcome of this peaceful turnset. We have 1k+ MFG for tanks. We have 35 happy faces in hand for drafting. We have all techs needed for 0 WW. Mansa is a priority, but the Sala/Ceaser/Boudica continent is ripe for conquest too. The locals are currently busy annihilating their SoDs, and it is so close.

The alternative, peaceful path, is researching Radio and Mass Media, possibly beating Mansa for the wonders he hasn't built yet: Rock'n'Roll, Hollywood, and the UN for a diplo vic. Unfortunately Boudica and Ceaser are about to ask impossible things from me because of their war, risking our friendship and my diplo vic votes.

Finally, there's Refrigeration - Superconductors, aka Supermarkets/Labs and the space vic.

Opinions? Preferences? Feedback is welcome.

 

[mystyfly]

If MM and Suleiman land is enought for Dom (which from looking at the map seems enought), I'd go that route. We've already seen so many SS wins and your empire has a huge potential. Lots of that 1k mfg goes waste if going for Alpha Centauri. And MM's probabely wasting hammers on those Mass Media wonders, which, as we've seen from Roosevelt, is no good idea.
MM also lacks important Military techs and Suleiman still needs Electricity before Industrialism, that is rather close but with your veteran units, you should be able to beat him quite smoothly. Attacking MM asap is the best thing me thinks. I don't know what your military situation looks like atm but after some turns with that hughe mfg and decent drafting should be sufficient to steamroll over Malinese terrain (and yield some huge cities as well..).
Boudica/JC/Sal island isn't going to be a threat. They're busy blowing up themselves. Maybe help JC a bit there so they remain at war a bit longer?
I'm by all means no superb player, and I haven't gathered that much experience but I think you should abuse your situation (land is power )

 

[Rusten]

The alternative, peaceful path......

Stopped reading there. We want bloodshed, not the sissy way out! Finish that tech hugger!

On a more serious note, it is risky for the reasons you already mentioned and it would be such a waste to not roll over some poor AI with that insane production you got going there. I'll have a look at the save (thanks btw!) and see if I change my mind as to who to attack and if.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

so I think Mercantilisim coupled with Representation is a really solid combo then... it could be better than free market...

I am talking about medieval era where you discover Economics. I was always undecided whether to switch to FreeMarket or not. In case of Representation, Mercantilisim seems to be clearly the better choice.

When you discover SP, you can switch to it, it is understood... you reduce distance maintenance, that alone could be enough reason. How much is maintenance reduced by switching to state property btw?

That's right, Mercantilism is fine. Btw, notice how I build two cities on Greenland: the island is too poor to adequately support them, but they generate trade routes worth at least 2 commerce for all cities in the empire. Too bad food is scarce there. Sushi might change that and once the cities grow we'll have some decent internal routes. There are maps where such routes can be achieved earlier, further boosting Mercantilism.


To calculate SP savings, hover over city maintenance on F2 screen and multiply distance costs by inflation. Those are entirely removed, leaving only the number costs.

 

[Zanttu]

Impressive. SO impressive. I hope you are going to continue these series after this. I just love reading this, and certainly agree that this is the best thread going on right now.

I think I should try Sid's Sushi someday, looks like you are getting alot food from it.. I count 8 food in one screenshot? Wow. That's like 4 free specialists per city.. I really should try the corporations more properly someday.

*Joins the Unconquered Sun fanclub*

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I imagine the culture on the tile is decided by a the culture of each of your cities influencing that tile multiplied by an smaller than 1 factor which should represent the distance.

However, the problem is that, even if I have only 1 city and he has only 1 influencing a certain, in 70-80% of the cases, he wins the cultural war, due to superior infrastucture; even if I build culture and well, probably optimize better then he does my production. That's what I was mainly asking; is normal to usually lose a cultural border war at this lvl?

Each city adds whatever culture it produces to all tiles in its cultural radius each turn.

However

there's a hidden value (20) that is added to all tiles except the ones in the othermost ring.

Example

A creative human player aggressively settles 2 tiles away from a brand new deity AI city. Let's say the deity AI builds a cultural building every 10 turns. The creative human won't be building anything, her goal is to keep the tiles split evenly.

On turn 1 we do have the contested tiles split evenly.

turn 5: human border pop

On turn 10 the AI completes a monument.

turn 20: library and AI border pop

turn 30: religion spread

turn 40: monastery

turn 44: AI has second border pop (city at 100)

turn 50: human has second border pop (city at 100)

where's the border on turn 50? where's it on turn 200?

The human had borders pop at turn 5. Her side of the contested tiles have 50 turns of 2 culture for creative and 45 turns of 20 culture for being an inner ring = 1,000 culture.

The AI spread its culture over the human side on turn 20 (when monument popped border). So we have

30 turns of monument and library = 90
20 turns of religion = 20
10 turns of monastery = 20
6 turns of inner ring hidden value = 120
total 250

border is in the middle of the two cities, the human player side of the tiles is currently 80% hers.

Assuming all values stay the same for the example's sake, the AI now adds 4 more culture/turn than the human on those tiles (22 v 26 totals). It'll take 188 turns for the AI to overcome the 750 culture advantage Creative provided (turn 238).

 

[SnowlyWhite]

ic, so no matter what, I get that 20/turn bar the outside ring. Thanks alot, didn't know that, always thought it'd be a multiplier from distance to the city itself - guess that happens when you imagine how you'd do it instead of reading how it's actually done

 

[Unconquered Sun]

weeeeee! Best thread on the forum gets an update, can't wait for the next turnset. Only a shame that it's one step closer to its end. Planning on doing another game, or is it too much work? Really great play and extra kudos for running a FE, makes for an even more interesting end-game compared to CE. Late-game saves would also be truly appreciated if you can afford to upload them. Really impressive production graph, you might've taken out Mansa with sheer numbers alone at this point, but better to be safe than sorry if you feel you can make it to the next military tech sooner.

Also enjoyed the part where you wrote about thoughts and weighed pros and cons. I have an awful tendency to just go by the gut and play too fast without calculating and that can set me back quite a bit at times. Overall great write-up. I've been following this thread for months now and it's time to give some credit.

*joins the Unconquered Sun fanclub*

Thank you. I'm close to my 30 Mb space limit.There's about enough left to finish the University.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Impressive. SO impressive. I hope you are going to continue these series after this. I just love reading this, and certainly agree that this is the best thread going on right now.

I think I should try Sid's Sushi someday, looks like you are getting alot food from it.. I count 8 food in one screenshot? Wow. That's like 4 free specialists per city.. I really should try the corporations more properly someday.

*Joins the Unconquered Sun fanclub*

Yeah, Sushi is great on this map. Tons and tons of fish. City #18 (next to Washington) will expand over another one in a turn. Roosevelt was kind enough to leave it boated for me

I lost a clam trade tho, because of the war north. So it's back to 8 food/32 culture.

 

[Rusten]

If you do run out if space do not hesitate to ask. I'm always ready to sacrifice some of my limit for good threads.

I should really start using those corporations more often. I never got around to using them actively personally. Think the bugs or whatever it was 6-ish months ago scared me from trying them and possibly risking my game. I'm also a huge SP fan. However, I'll definitely try to implement them in my next offline game, probably by stepping down the difficulty to immortal to allow some experiments with them. The bonuses are without a doubt great though.

That's right, Mercantilism is fine. Btw, notice how I build two cities on Greenland: the island is too poor to adequately support them, but they generate trade routes worth at least 2 commerce for all cities in the empire. Too bad food is scarce there. Sushi might change that and once the cities grow we'll have some decent internal routes. There are maps where such routes can be achieved earlier, further boosting Mercantilism.

Definitely. Doing this is also a "must" with isolated starts where you have no foreign trade routes within reach early on in the game. Trade routes are usually a pretty big part of your overall income and I feel their importance is often overlooked.