Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities

[Unconquered Sun]

1) In the shorter term it's Writing, scientists in capital, and either Alphabet (if all the AIs still lack it) or else Aesthetics which the AIs don't prioritize. After that, Drama will give me access to a very strong UB and a shot for Philosophy lightbulb. These techs are to be traded for IW, Math, Currency and CoL, all of which I really need.

The problem is I'm losing 13 gold/turn atm and the 51 gold from the hut and the 22 from the Stonehedge are all but gone. Soon my research will be by scientists mostly and I might need to settle the first GS to fuel "small" techs like Aesthetics, which will postpone Philosophy. BTW, that's one of the plus sides of scientists: at 0% slider my research will be conducted at the only place with 25% research bonus.

Expansion will continue to be aggressive, then, hopefully post-IW, I will capture the barb territory and backfill with cities.

In the longer term I envision Liberalism beeline followed by war.

2) Yes, and no, I wouldn't bother on lower difficulty for two reasons: slower AI expansion and weaker AI defenses.

3) I'm running a full FE, the reasons being a lot of food, Byzantine UB, Spiritual. On the other hand, a CE under the circumstances is no good at all because the capital has too few cottageable tiles. I might transition to CE at a later, post-Democracy point, however early and mid-game CE is all about the capital+bureaucracy+academy. Actually, the substantial benefits of Bureaucracy and academy are not the only reason pre-Democracy CE is capital-dependent. There's another reason: most games (normal speed) are decided in the 200-300 turn zone, right now it's turn 63. Imagine building cottages from scratch for my second and third city...by the time enough of them mature it will be turn 200.

 

[desemondez]

The next piece of strategy is about starting research and build (disregard the pic's placeholder choices). Any of the two is worth some serious consideration.

On a grander level, I am processing all the information we have in terms of overall strategy. As expected, we are far south on what is starting to shape as a peninsula across another landmass where the grass is greener. We also know that:

- we're Spiritual, Imperialistic, with Wheel and Mysticism
- Byzantine culture slider is worth an amazing 25 happy faces
- we might have a secured back, but we need to expand fast to get six decent cities
- barbarians will likely be trouble
- we have four health resources, one best, one worst, and two favoring coastal cities
- no marble/stone yet
- we have water for irrigation
- we have a city with optimal SE population of 25; or optimum cottage number of 6 (or 7, if there's a way to bring water for the wheat from east)
- there are good tiles to work all the way to current happiness cap
- we have forests and cold climate guarantees more forests around, so chopping settlers will be easy (plus for Bronze)
- fur, deer, silver, whales, wine are likely to be around
- elephants, gems, bananas, sugar, dyes (Byzantines rely less on dyes than anyone else) are unlikely to be around
- the rest of the resources might or might not be around (Byzantines gain a bit more from incense due to cheap temples = less effort for cathedrals)
- oil and aluminium are likely
- silk is only plantation resource that regularly shows up next to cold climate zones (minus for Calendar)
- we won't be seeing any jungles (minus for Iron Working)
- if there are neighbours, there's a good chance elephants won't be around which is a plus for Cataphracts, especially if an AI is left ironless

Conclusion: 1. Manage expansion 2. CE combo capital is not happening for now, so we'll rely on FE. The hippodrume and the numerous health resources we're likely to obtain will help.

I'm amazed that there are people like you who are able to read so deeply into the game ... To be honest I don't plan that far ahead at all but I can still win easily on Noble. I guess such foresight and planning is needed to make the jump to Prince difficulty.

And yeah you expanded so far away ... isn't the maintenance gonna kill you

 

[Unconquered Sun]

And yeah you expanded so far away ... isn't the maintenance gonna kill you

No pain no gain

I'm counting on the gold to survive this.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

A clarification:

My definition of Food Economy (FE) is an economy with farms as the dominant tile improvement. The FE excels in running specialists, lucrative trade routes, using much slavery, and drafting.

 

[Scarredroman]

You've been relatively fortunate in the neighbours you've met. You have also demonstrated the risk you need to take on Deity by settling next to Roosevelt. You're close to cutting him off from your peninsular. You have a good barbarian city that will make a great GP farm. Horse rush? Gold helps overcome a number of problems.

 

[darrelljs]

Agriculture would enable wheat; however, between the 2 seafoods, the sheep, the hill (mining it not so away) the wheat won't see much use in the early game for a considerably more expensive tech and ~5 worker turns of improvement.

That surprises me a bit. You had to build two Workboats then a Worker, it seems that you would be able to research AGR/AH before the Worker completed. You don't have any plains forests so it seems the workboats would take some time to get out.

Back in the capital, AH was researched and ..... we got four horses on the map, one of them in the fat cross itself!

It was a bit of bad luck moving onto the Horse, really the starting resource distribution was quite poor. If the Fish had been one tile north you could have stayed in place and pulled in a pair of grassland hill tiles, now you end up with a food resource that you probably won't work for some time . I guess eventually you can settle three N of the Wheat and give the Sheep to feed the Wine city.

So I pass the city and try to expand along Gold River.

Fortune favors the bold! I would never have the cojones to try that, those cities are going to cost an arm. Also, Roosevelt has the Great Wall so barbarians that spawn in the fog are going to slide right in. It looks like it will be dozens of turns before you are working the Gold as well, I'm curious to see how it works out .

Darrell

 

[Unconquered Sun]

That surprises me a bit. You had to build two Workboats then a Worker, it seems that you would be able to research AGR/AH before the Worker completed. You don't have any plains forests so it seems the workboats would take some time to get out.

There's a plain hill with forest.

It was a bit of bad luck moving onto the Horse, really the starting resource distribution was quite poor. If the Fish had been one tile north you could have stayed in place and pulled in a pair of grassland hill tiles, now you end up with a food resource that you probably won't work for some time . I guess eventually you can settle three N of the Wheat and give the Sheep to feed the Wine city.

Indeed, if seafoods were 1n the city would have been better. What's important is to capitalize on whatever luck you get.

Fortune favors the bold! I would never have the cojones to try that, those cities are going to cost an arm. Also, Roosevelt has the Great Wall so barbarians that spawn in the fog are going to slide right in. It looks like it will be dozens of turns before you are working the Gold as well, I'm curious to see how it works out .

Not dozens, only about a dozen for both. I sent my first worker with the settlers. Take a look:

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Update

I put the eastern cities on monument-worker-granary queue. Once the granaries are completed, the cities will quickly grow on their food resources.


I was fast to connect Gold River to America, but America itself lacked a route to my capital (they prolly have no coastal city). Eventually, I followed a river southeast and established an empire-wide route.

Another barb city sprang up in the backfill zone and a third on the "grass is greener" landmass. At first this was a boon, as my chariots captured two barb workers. Then, out of the blue, err, black, a barbarian galley emerged. My fish is going to be pillaged, and I need to whip a galley for 3 pop and hope for the best.

Also, Mansa got in missionary mood and now Suleiman is the only non-Hindu.

We're a turn away from Alphabet (no AI has it) and two turns away from a GS prior to whipping our galley.

I miss the Dromon.

 

[slobberinbear]

I presume you'll fortify the galley on the southeastern seafood?

By the way, I love the aggressive forward-building. Would you have done it without the gold or other high commerce tile to offset the maintenance?

 

[lilnev]

I think I would have gone Fishing-Ag-AH, instead of through Hunting. Wheat is a good tile. It may look like excessive food, but between whipping and simply building workers and settlers, I think you could have used it. The increased cost of Ag over Hunting is made up for by the cheapening of Pottery when you have additional pre-reqs. Unless you thought you might need archers for barb defence? But on a peninsula like this I'd lean more towards fog-busting than actual combat. Or were you looking ahead to the eventual Fur?

I totally agree with the decision to go upstream to block land from the Americans. In BtS, it seems important to have enough land for a strong expansion phase before going to war, and the Gold will allow those cities to be self-supporting. Next city should perhaps be Fur-Ivory-Horse-flood plains, to continue sealing him out?

Personally I would have devoted the capital to worker/settler production (including the Wheat) and spammed a bunch of cottage cities everywhere else. Eventually convert the capital to a GP farm and rebuild the palace somewhere else to profit from Bureaucracy (and reduce distance maintainence).... But I'm a notoriously bad SE/FE player. So I'll shut up and watch and maybe learn.

peace,
lilnev

edit: wrote this before the last post went up. Not sure what that second barb city does to the future dot-map....

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I presume you'll fortify the galley on the southeastern seafood?

By the way, I love the aggressive forward-building. Would you have done it without the gold or other high commerce tile to offset the maintenance?

Yes, galley goes to crabs. If you look carefully, you'll notice I need to whip the galley right now, at 20 hammer per pop instead of the usual 30 hammer per pop after a build is started. The reason is the barb galley can block my path to the crabs otherwise and choose to pillage them instead of attacking my galley. I have no idea how barbarian ships behave, they are a new thing, but based on barbarian behaviour of avoiding hard battles for pillage I don't want to risk another seafood.

The gold cities aren't mining settlements. They have food resources, river, hills; the potential is there. If there wasn't gold, there would have been some other resource in the area, that's how map generation works. I'm always on the lookout for aggressive settling opportunities.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I think I would have gone Fishing-Ag-AH, instead of through Hunting. Wheat is a good tile. It may look like excessive food, but between whipping and simply building workers and settlers, I think you could have used it. The increased cost of Ag over Hunting is made up for by the cheapening of Pottery when you have additional pre-reqs. Unless you thought you might need archers for barb defence? But on a peninsula like this I'd lean more towards fog-busting than actual combat. Or were you looking ahead to the eventual Fur?

I agree the peninsula is best defended by fogbusting. Apart from lower cost, Hunting had three minor advantages: scouts if needed; archers if needed; camps if needed. In hindsight, Agriculture was better, but I couldn't know I've settled right on top of horses.

I totally agree with the decision to go upstream to block land from the Americans. In BtS, it seems important to have enough land for a strong expansion phase before going to war, and the Gold will allow those cities to be self-supporting. Next city should perhaps be Fur-Ivory-Horse-flood plains, to continue sealing him out?

The fact I'm getting Alpha first testifies the gamble worked despite the huge maintenance cost. The sealing will continue. Unfortunately I have to waste a settler-worth whip now because of the barbarian galley. I really hope there won't be an unending stream of barb galleys out of the fogs.

Personally I would have devoted the capital to worker/settler production (including the Wheat) and spammed a bunch of cottage cities everywhere else. Eventually convert the capital to a GP farm and rebuild the palace somewhere else to profit from Bureaucracy (and reduce distance maintainence).... But I'm a notoriously bad SE/FE player. So I'll shut up and watch and maybe learn.

peace,
lilnev

edit: wrote this before the last post went up. Not sure what that second barb city does to the future dot-map....

I'll post the initial 4000 save as soon as my game makes it to the 500-1000 AD, you can try cottaging with GP farm capital.

Relocating palace is something on my mind too...as a matter of fact, my futue capital is already working cottages

The new barb city doesn't change anything.

 

[slobberinbear]

Yes, galley goes to crabs. If you look carefully, you'll notice I need to whip the galley right now, at 20 hammer per pop instead of the usual 30 hammer per pop after a build is started. The reason is the barb galley can block my path to the crabs otherwise and choose to pillage them instead of attacking my galley. I have no idea how barbarian ships behave, they are a new thing, but based on barbarian behaviour of avoiding hard battles for pillage I don't want to risk another seafood.

The gold cities aren't mining settlements. They have food resources, river, hills; the potential is there. If there wasn't gold, there would have been some other resource in the area, that's how map generation works. I'm always on the lookout for aggressive settling opportunities.

If you get to the crabs first with your whipped galley, you'll have the 10% tile defense bonus and that's about it. Hopefully that will be enough to carry the day. The barb galley will definitely attack your galley -- it's a naval target and it's on top of the pillage target.

My other question had more to do with the economics of forward settling. In other words, if the gold river cities didn't have the gold, how would you have supported the maintenance? Cottages? Working both seafood in the seafood and losing a scientist? I'm a Prince/Monarch level player trying to learn a bit here.

 

[Scarredroman]

Metal casting and triremes pretty much end the barb galley threat or gaining control of the great wall of america. You may get the build 7 'remes challenge. You may want to charck out the landmass to your west before shifting the capital. It does look like and island, but it won't hurt to make sure.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Bear in mind the Great Wall doesn't affect barbarian ships though unless that was changed in BtS.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Bear in mind the Great Wall doesn't affect barbarian ships though unless that was changed in BtS.

No changes here.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Metal casting and triremes pretty much end the barb galley threat or gaining control of the great wall of america. You may get the build 7 'remes challenge. You may want to charck out the landmass to your west before shifting the capital. It does look like and island, but it won't hurt to make sure.

MC is nice, but it is an expensive tech on a path the AI favors heavily. When I have something to trade for it, I will, but self-researching it is a bad move. I'd rather whip more galleys if I have to.

America is scarier than all the barbs, despite concentrating on wonders, not military. I can't capture Washington right now...maybe I could have with a chariot rush but that would have been a very different game.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

My other question had more to do with the economics of forward settling. In other words, if the gold river cities didn't have the gold, how would you have supported the maintenance? Cottages? Working both seafood in the seafood and losing a scientist? I'm a Prince/Monarch level player trying to learn a bit here.

The most important thing is: don't cut on your scientists at this moment. IMO many players struggle with that; it's vital to have the discipline to keep your two library scientists going for a couple of GSs. This is the only way I can beat research monsters like Mansa to Philosophy.

Cottages aren't very good in supporting expansion in a FE. They require workers, 10 turns to grow, etc, only to be demolished later. It's better to work coastal tiles.

On that particular map, riverside cottages would have been OK commerce, but the real deal in a inland, foody, hilly map is getting a convertor tech like Alphabet or Currency. Some irrigation, some mines, build science.

This entire setup is about the library scientists and that's why they must keep going. The rest of the empire has just two goals: clear cheap techs on the way to expensive lightbulbs; break at least even in expansion so that expansion can continue. That's all. You'll see how the AIs conventional research progresses much faster, only to be beaten by a few strategic lightbulbs.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Tomorrow I'll post a big update of how today's game session ended.

 

[shyuhe]

ouch! and Boudica too... I've heard rumors about her taste for blood.