Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities

[ParadigmShifter]

Holy large screenshots Batman!

Even on maximum browser width I have to scroll to see all the text.

Well played so far, nice write-up. My only deity games so far were last months major gauntlet (cultural) so I had Mansa and the peace-mongers so I am shocked you were first to liberalism in 780AD, more like getting beaten to it by 200AD in my games (this was Warlrds though not BtS).

 

[Grimz101]

oh and another thing, do you think its worth it for grabbing chemistry fast aswell, just for privateers, which can generate brilliant amounts of commerce, and so much xp from caravels attacking them

 

[nbcman]

oh and another thing, do you think its worth it for grabbing chemistry fast aswell, just for privateers, which can generate brilliant amounts of commerce, and so much xp from caravels attacking them

I agree with Grimz on the privateers-you are imperialistic and can pick up quick GGs from the XPs earned by your privateers. I was pleasantly surprised in my offline (Prince) Joao/Portugal game when I spammed privateers and picked up at least 2 GGs worth of experience from the AI's ships (24 caravels and miscellaneous triremes and galleys). Although you are playing way over my head-it may be a bad move if all of the AI's are ahead of you and hit your privateers with frigates-or SotL.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

just from reading this i moved up from monarch to the next level.. so well keep it up, and after this one keep on keeping it up i hope!

my question though is if you were financel would you have gone for the CE economy, or do you think it still would not have been worth it? I know this Civilizations UB may have affected your decision too..

and will you bother with national park for late game free specialists, or do you think its to late game, and not worth saving a city for it?

Archipelagoes aside, Financial is effective only under CE.

The National Park is a great wonder. It removes unhealthiness from population. If coupled with Globe and irrigations, the combo is almost equal to 20 forest tiles in the fat cross. So, it's very useful even with no forests around.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Yeah, the Liberalism -> Military Tradition slingshot kind of neuters Justinian's other great strength .

Darrell

IMO this is a weakness in CIV design. The AI favors the Banking line so much because its tax slider is always high.

Moreover, in a game full with +100% production for this or that, the three tax buildings don't get any bonus, not from traits, not from resources. Basically this excludes them from optimized high level strategies, including them makes the strategy sub-optimal.

Bottomline is, deity AI will beat you on the Banking beeline and trying to match it there is pointless. Hence, Cataphracts, while great, can often be passed by on the highest levels.

 

[Scarredroman]

I assume that you'd traded for guilds from someone else since the 720 AD shot shows Mansa has Guilds available and it was available to take from liberalism but not in the 780 AD Mansa screen.

Your only other choice is take constitution from liberalism, but that confirms the peaceful option.

If you took mil trad and dowed Roosevelt, would that affect the trade with mansa? You could then bribe Suleiman to attack Mansa and hope Boudica jumps in on Mansa as well. 'Course I don't know what your army is nor what Roosevelt has.

 

[Grimz101]

Archipelagoes aside, Financial is effective only under CE.

The National Park is a great wonder. It removes unhealthiness from population. If coupled with Globe and irrigations, the combo is almost equal to 20 forest tiles in the fat cross. So, it's very useful even with no forests around.

personally it pains me to much to seperate myself from globe city and using it solely for a city just drafting constantly, well i guess thats because i always end up going for my full on attack to take the world with rifling since AI does not prio it that much as someone else pointed out, it likes the infrastructure techs much more like economics and CR3 riflemen are unstoppable if you pack cannons and an escort, but well with the AI on Diety im guessing the Age of riflemen runs out much faster then Monarch or the next one up which name eludes me at the moment, damn selective memory ! Same going for a certain naval unit to do with piracy

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I assume that you'd traded for guilds from someone else since the 720 AD shot shows Mansa has Guilds available and it was available to take from liberalism but not in the 780 AD Mansa screen.

Guilds aren't hard to get. Researching Gunpower will be fast the Cuirassiers will be available while Roosevelt has longbows/pikes.

 

[Scarredroman]

Roosevelt is researching economics, must have banking and must have guilds. He'll have knights, too, unless you've snared all available horses. You must have horse archers, macemen, trebs, longbows and crossbows. How many cities can you take with the forces you have available. All bar one, and will he still like you enough to capitulate and give up his techs?

 

[Aquarius_DJ]

Maybe a stupid question but what does ToA mean?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Temple of Artemis -- +100% income from trade routes and a free priest specialist in the city where the wonder is built.

 

[Johan^^]

First of all, nice game on deity

I normally play on Emp/Mon, so nice to have a game on a higher level

It would be nice if you (Unconquered Sun) could make links in the first post to the threads where you go through the game. It makes it easier to get an overview of the game

 

[ungy]

Thanks for posting this and very educational.

One question: I'm really surprised that you didn't build the warrior initially. I would've thought much better to park it somewhere to fog-bust rather than take the coin from SH.

A valuable lesson for me is the importance of keeping running the scientists. Seems I tend to get tempted to whip something or other and then my GP generation is too slow.

I'm also kind of surprised that the AI hasn't come to settle the unclaimed resources in your territory by now.

 

[Giaur]

14 squares from the capital. That was really amazing move. I never expanded so aggressively. I wonder what was the commerce loss after that

 

[axident]

14 squares from the capital. That was really amazing move. I never expanded so aggressively. I wonder what was the commerce loss after that

I've done comparable long-distance moves but not on Deity and not without Organized or Financial; those gold mines made it possible in this game and it paid off big time!

 

[vicawoo]

It's always good to learn from the nuances of the good players. Like the early map analysis was a gem.

I don't play BTS, so I can't comment on some things. But let me see if I can summarize the major strategic moves.

#1 Late settler (don't know why slavery is so much worse in BTS). Would be highly unconventional in warlords.
#2 Long distance blocking
#3 FE (actually I can't tell because there weren't saves or enough non-capital city screenshots) and lightbulbing

Major question:
I know the need to keep two scientists to keep a steady supply of GP. I also some people starve theri cities for GP. But what do you do right after you pop a scientist? Max food growth to restore the population? Keep on scientists? Obviously, you can't starve your city all the time.
Build order: it was granary worker something (courthouse?). Then do you start doing barracks/theatres or units? Which are you whipping, and when are you timing your caste system science bursts.

Minor comments:
why not go for the south coast marble faster and go for great library?
the settled GS, I've heard BTS golden ages can be better than lightbulbing, so why didn't you golden age?
2nd workboat instead of worker. The worker might come a little early (though you're working a coastal fish, so it can't be too bad), but you can use the time to build a road 1 NE, which grants an extra settler move early and helps connect the pasture later on. Also, there's little need to work the clams when you have sheep early on.
if you can trade for monarchy and don't get mathematics, you can use a GM to lightbulb civil service. I'm not sure if that gets ruined by sailing.
My impression is that FE's using caste system and slavery are going to have big problems without spiritual, especially if you war. The turn loss to anarchy can get absurd.
If horses hadn't appeared so close, would you have gone archery?

Late game: unless you have your new capital set up well, I'm not sure how you'll keep up with mansa. Frankly, having to trade your liberalism tech for constitution means you're relying on tricks to keep up. Lightbulbing is going to start failing soon, if you can't use your tech parity (not lead) to conquer some land, the game will get more out of hand.

 

[Snaaty]

@ Unconquered Sun:

Great play so far

...

Two questions:

Why haven´t you settled the marble site earlier and have taken the literacy route for the GL (trading aest for alpha after investing 2-3 turns of research into alpha)?

Why haven´t you build your second/third city Tessa... one tile left, on the plain hill (better early productivity+ several floodplains (fp) that would have made it possible to work 2 cottaged fp and gold very early, later 2 cottages, gold, pigs and 2 scientists, making it an early eco powerhouse)?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I'm also kind of surprised that the AI hasn't come to settle the unclaimed resources in your territory by now.

F5, look for settlers. If any on the way, whip your own and run for the site

 

[Ruler]

About a time somebody started this kind of thread. I've learnt a couple good tricks. I'm very impressived how you rushed Roosevelt into corner. Make me think what the heck did he too with all those hammers, maybe wonders? He has only 6 cities that pretty uncommon even on Immortal not to mention Deity as they start with 2 settlers. He almost looks like a human player in my games. Good game so far.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

14 squares from the capital. That was really amazing move. I never expanded so aggressively. I wonder what was the commerce loss after that

About half of what commerce the cities produced.