Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities

[EEE_BOY]

Holy S***! the tech situation is fearsome. I expected to learn a lot from this thread, but can't give any advice since i am usually on emperor and not used to this new leader and his UU.

Great thread! more shiny pictures please!

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Update


My galley won. No more barbarian ships appeared.

Traded Alphabet for Math, Iron Working, and some cheaper stuff. The latter is not good for WFYABTA, but with Mansa onboard I am more worried about falling behind in tech than running out of techtrade partners.

Shortly after that I had my first GS. With Philo still far on the tech tree I considered Academy or settling. I was on the way to build two more cities and completely block Roosevelt, that meant low science slider, bad for academy. GS was settled.

My fourth city was founded north, next to Boston, and got me Iron and marble. The fifth went to the southern coastline (more horses, marble, and sheep there), completing Roosevelt's seal off. Granted, the seal was more a "psychological" barrier to Roosevelt than an actual barrier as we had Open Borders, but the Americans never tried to cross it.

I adopted Organized religion. Eventually Mansa built the Apostolitic Palace, which wass good for the time: diplo bonuses and hammer bonuses on my cheap hindu temples and other hindu buildings.

The diplomatic situation was very good, everybody loved me, until two strangely colored workboats came from the north: Ceaser and Boudica, two of the four most infamous CIV villains!

Anyway, villains have their uses too. They weren't weak, in fact Boudica's score was second only to Mansa's, but they lacked some of the techs I had. So, I presented them with gifts and signed Open Borders. Both of them already had "We've got too much on our hands", they were not after me...but after whom? Could Boudica be my Mansabreaker?

So do I, sweetheart!




Aesthetics and Drama followed, and the hippodrume enabled some crazy whipping. I believe at the end I was getting +57 turns of unhappiness in some cities. Whatever. Hippodrume and lots of imported happiness resources resulted in me not bothering to police most of my cities.

Part of the whipped was a Swordsmen army. They captured the barbarian cities, I kept Numidian and demolished the other to rebuild it in a better site. Then, the Swordsmen proceeeded to Greenland.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Cities and units are expensive on deity, and my research plummeted. Yes, it was a Dark Age for the Byzantines...until a great philosopher was born, founding Taoism in Numidian!



The 300 AD tech window

The 325 AD tech window

This is the result of trading Philosophy around.



Imperial overview, 350 AD

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I adopted Hereditary Rule and Vassalage, however I postponed Caste and Pacifism to whip courthouses under Organized Religion.


Meanwhile, Boudica creeps me out in 475 AD. She was after Angle. I capture it first. Her ships turn back.

Also, the last AI turns out to be a backward Saladin.

Finally, I'm able to run Caste and Pacisifism. While convensional research is on Paper and a bit of Guilds, Constantinople whips National Epic then starves to pop two GS in several turns. Education lightbulb and full-scale reseach retool follows for Liberalism. Once I'm sure Mansa and Roosevelt can't beat me to Lib, I trade Edu to them.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Liberalism, finally.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

This is the point I'm at. Chapter I: Matching Deity Expansion And Research is completed.

The Liberalism selection is not written in stone; I'm looking for opinions based on the 760 AD save. Trading MilTrad to Mansa may result in a Defensive Pact with Roosevelt. Perhaps it's time to bribe Suleiman into a war with Mansa and take on Roosevelt myself. There's also vassalizing and the Apostolitic Palace to consider. Or maybe conquering the backward and war weary Saladin and Ceaser is better than attacking my friends? Or maybe I should fill up my territory with cities and tech peacefully enjoying defensive pacts with Mansa and Roosevelt?

And in the north, Ceaser DoWed Saladin. Boudica still has too much on her hands...what's she up to?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

The 4000 BC save, as promised.

 

[Brunotaurus]

Back to reseach: the alternatives are
- fishing to work fish and crab
- mining and bronze for chopping and slavery
- agriculture for wheat, AH for sheep and finding ultra-important horses
- hunting for scouts, AH for sheep and finding ultra-important horses
- early religion (ToA route capital gambit?)

What would a ToA route capital gambit be? Emphazising Trade routes with the ToA, i guess. But i never learned two effectivly use that. Maybe somebody can provide a link to that strategy.

I'm still really amazed how you beat those AI to Lib on deity ... looking forward to see the rest of this game.

 

[darrelljs]

There's a plain hill with forest.

D'oh...don't see how I missed that. It also supports your decision to hit size two before starting the first Workboat, since you can continue to working that tile after improving the Fish.

I wonder, initially you were going to run an SE but it looked like after settling the Gold/river cities you could run a fairly successful CE. I understand the need to go down the Liberalism path with an SE, the lightbulbing only really works well that way. However, if you could transition to a CE the Guilds/Banking path makes a lot of sense with Justinian. You get Cataphracts to take cities, and Grocers/Banks in your cottaged cities to pay for the upkeep.

Of course this is all moot since form your teaser screenshot you're well past the point of making this particular decision .

Darrell

 

[darrelljs]

Well done...I'd probably go Guilds/Banking and take out Roosevelt. He certainly did a poor job of handling your seal off gambit.

Darrell

 

[Kev]

Very cool game going on! I am looking forward to see if you can get Cataphracts into the game to see how they fare!

 

[overdose]

Great thread and well played! I tried to create a quick, painless science victory with FE and Scientists (although I gained control of my starting island by wiping USA with axe+cat rush. Gold mines ftw.

After I made the Statue of Liberty I traded Democracy around (big mistake) and now I was forced to switch to Emancipation. Now my Economy sucks. What does one do with FE when you can't use Caste System? Should I just cottage spam? I have a 3 good cities, a few decent ones and 6 of them are just plain sucky. I play on Emperor level and map size is small. I'm a n00b

Oh and I'm running Representation, Mercantilism, and Free religion + I have a 3500 gold surplus and I think that I'm going to get Kremlin too (even though I don't like it that much).

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Well played and instructive. Although the 300AD founding Taoism is evidence that removing ridiculous AI bonuses weakens them far more than better AI can compansate for (as in, it used to be that Taoism gets founded 600BC or something), I especially admire your brave attempt at utilizing the imperialistic trait so... boldly. Unescorted settlers are the least of your risks you have to face in deity level, so I believe it's the right move.

About the Mansa and Boudicca thing though: they're on different continents, so I doubt they'll be warring each other. I'm guessing that Boudicca will conquer her continent and MM will try to spaceship his way out. You'll lose either way unless you conquer your own continent. Which may be your only chance, and anyway MM is not the best war leader.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Well played and instructive. Although the 300AD founding Taoism is evidence that removing ridiculous AI bonuses weakens them far more than better AI can compansate for (as in, it used to be that Taoism gets founded 600BC or something), I especially admire your brave attempt at utilizing the imperialistic trait so... boldly. Unescorted settlers are the least of your risks you have to face in deity level, so I believe it's the right move.

To be honest, out of the 10 or so games I've played on BtS deity so far, this one is #2 in teching speed, due to the Mansa - Roosevelt tech partnership. I've seen much worse, and the only better was a de facto pangea where everyone was friendly to everyone and teched like mad (civs were Pacal, Joao, Wang, Louis, Huyana, and Oranje). But even in that peacemonger game only one AI managed to beat me in techs.

Actually, my settlers were escorted by chariots, which allowed for fast travel.

About the Mansa and Boudicca thing though: they're on different continents, so I doubt they'll be warring each other. I'm guessing that Boudicca will conquer her continent and MM will try to spaceship his way out. You'll lose either way unless you conquer your own continent. Which may be your only chance, and anyway MM is not the best war leader.

Probably...but if so, is she going to backstab Ceaser?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

After I made the Statue of Liberty I traded Democracy around (big mistake) and now I was forced to switch to Emancipation. Now my Economy sucks. What does one do with FE when you can't use Caste System?

I up my culture slider (theaters and colloseums are a must). I do any number of minor things, like collecting happy resources, whipping happy buildings, adopoting Nationalism, but these are self-evident. The important thing is, if your economy relies on specialists, and not on commerce income, the slider doesn't affect economy much.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Very cool game going on! I am looking forward to see if you can get Cataphracts into the game to see how they fare!

Considering I'm only a tech away from Cuirassiers, it's unlikely we'll see Cataphracts

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I wonder, initially you were going to run an SE but it looked like after settling the Gold/river cities you could run a fairly successful CE. I understand the need to go down the Liberalism path with an SE, the lightbulbing only really works well that way. However, if you could transition to a CE the Guilds/Banking path makes a lot of sense with Justinian.

Darrell

I'm not ruling out a transition at some point. Right now I'm looking forward to exploiting Representation specialists, with Biology as the next economy cornerstone tech.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

What would a ToA route capital gambit be? Emphazising Trade routes with the ToA, i guess. But i never learned two effectivly use that. Maybe somebody can provide a link to that strategy.

It's about a large coastal capital with ToA + Bureaucracy + Academy. Back on Warlords, when the AI favored huge cities, this strategy was good in beating the AIs in GNP early on the high levels. Basically, they built the supercities, and you cashed on them.

An example of a ToA strategy would be an old game of mine, here's a quote and a link:

Some bribing for good relations, and Rome had trade routes of 15-20 gp each, +50% for Bureaucracy, doubled for buildings and eventually Academy

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=198459

In BtS, I feel trade is somewhat nerfed. In theory, Custom Houses ought to make it even better, but most of the time the AI cities are kind of small. You can see this in the world screenshots I provided: even on deity and nearly at 1000 AD there is not one AI city of 20 or higher. On Warlords deity, I've seen 20s pre-AD.

 

[darrelljs]

Considering I'm only a tech away from Cuirassiers, it's unlikely we'll see Cataphracts

Yeah, the Liberalism -> Military Tradition slingshot kind of neuters Justinian's other great strength .

Darrell

 

[Grimz101]

just from reading this i moved up from monarch to the next level.. so well keep it up, and after this one keep on keeping it up i hope!

my question though is if you were financel would you have gone for the CE economy, or do you think it still would not have been worth it? I know this Civilizations UB may have affected your decision too..

and will you bother with national park for late game free specialists, or do you think its to late game, and not worth saving a city for it?