Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities

[Unconquered Sun]

About a time somebody started this kind of thread. I've learnt a couple good tricks. I'm very impressived how you rushed Roosevelt into corner. Make me think what the heck did he too with all those hammers, maybe wonders? He has only 6 cities that pretty uncommon even on Immortal not to mention Deity as they start with 2 settlers. He almost looks like a human player in my games. Good game so far.

Your observation is very close to the truth.

Wonders are the only thing deity AIs don't get huge discounts on. At this point of the game, their building and unit discount is approaching 50%, however wonder discount is probably about 25% (and it might have been as low as 0% at 4000 BC, have to check that some day).

Roosevelt's capital is in a perpetual wonderspree. He doesn't have marble/stone. For the hammers he's wasted he could have built enough units to conquer Mansa or enough settlers and gold for city upkeep to swarm me in cities.

But before feeling too sorry about Roosevelt, it's important to understand that 1) every deity AI leader has his/her own flaw that ultimately allows the human player to win 2) Roosevelt's weak expansion is the root of Mansa's power in this game.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

#1 Late settler (don't know why slavery is so much worse in BTS). Would be highly unconventional in warlords.

More like two late settlers and a developed imperialistic capital. I could have build many more settlers - but I lacked the gold for city upkeep.

#3 FE (actually I can't tell because there weren't saves or enough non-capital city screenshots) and lightbulbing

There are saves for 1480 BC, 350 AD, and 760 AD.

Major question:
I know the need to keep two scientists to keep a steady supply of GP. I also some people starve theri cities for GP. But what do you do right after you pop a scientist? Max food growth to restore the population? Keep on scientists? Obviously, you can't starve your city all the time.

Depends. In the case of Education, I starved the capital for 2 GS, losing 1 pop to gain 1 turn for the start of Liberalism research. Generally speaking, growing is fast in CIV and it is good to grow your cities as soon as whipping the most important buildings and accumulating the gpp for the most important GP is done.

Build order: it was granary worker something (courthouse?). Then do you start doing barracks/theatres or units? Which are you whipping, and when are you timing your caste system science bursts.

I only build workers in my second/third city. From that point on, developed cities build workers for my new cities.

The build order is:

1) culture for border pop. Can be done by Monument or Theatre. Also, a missionary especially if under Organized Religion - it will pay off. Post Music I can build 10 culture. Finally, if under Caste, I can run an artist for three turns.

2) whip granary

3) whip courthouse

the settled GS, I've heard BTS golden ages can be better than lightbulbing, so why didn't you golden age?

Because one of the main benefits of BtS GA is no anarchy. However, Justinian is Spiritual. That's why I'm keeping my cheap GAs for when my empire is more developed.

2nd workboat instead of worker. The worker might come a little early (though you're working a coastal fish, so it can't be too bad), but you can use the time to build a road 1 NE, which grants an extra settler move early and helps connect the pasture later on. Also, there's little need to work the clams when you have sheep early on.

Techs on deity are very expensive. There are a lot of turns between Fishing and a two tech beeline to AH. And the clams are better, one more food and commerce v. one more hammer.

My impression is that FE's using caste system and slavery are going to have big problems without spiritual, especially if you war. The turn loss to anarchy can get absurd.

If horses hadn't appeared so close, would you have gone archery?

Spiritual is probably the best FE trait in Warlods. In BtS, with GAs negating anarchy, I'd say the best FE traits are Philo and Creative.

Anyhow, Justinian is Spiritual and I'm already utilizing this, not only for Slavery/Caste and OR-Pacifism-Theology switches, but for diplo bonuses (I was Jewish for five turns after a demand of Suleiman's)

Late game: unless you have your new capital set up well, I'm not sure how you'll keep up with mansa. Frankly, having to trade your liberalism tech for constitution means you're relying on tricks to keep up. Lightbulbing is going to start failing soon, if you can't use your tech parity (not lead) to conquer some land, the game will get more out of hand.

I haven't even started developing the economy for now. It'll get a lot more impressive. But I agree Mansa is getting out of hand, partly due to his everpresent superb peacemongering, partly due to Roosevelt's failure to expand in Mansa's direction.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Why haven´t you settled the marble site earlier and have taken the literacy route for the GL (trading aest for alpha after investing 2-3 turns of research into alpha)?

Maybe I should have, getting the marble and working the the other gold there.

I did invest a bit in Aesthetics, before changing my mind and going for Alphabet. However, I lacked Masonry and Poly. I was getting very worried the abundance of horses in my territory spelled lack of any metals. So, I needed to trade Aesthetics for Alphabet, then on the next turn I needed to trade Aesthetics for IW to find me some iron before it's too late; for Math to partially chop the GL, for Masonry, to work the marble, for Poly, to speed up Literature (my research at the time really sucked). Basically, the entire setup was getting more and more theoretical.

Ironically, the only iron is in the marble-gold city fatcross. Chances are, I missed a window to build the GL.

Why haven´t you build your second/third city Tessa... one tile left, on the plain hill (better early productivity+ several floodplains (fp) that would have made it possible to work 2 cottaged fp and gold very early, later 2 cottages, gold, pigs and 2 scientists, making it an early eco powerhouse)?

On Warlords, your placing is best.

On BtS, settling next to river is paramount. Tessa will be a production powerhouse, and, with BtS higher pollution, having two more health is having one more workshop. Also, the river allows the levee building, which is +1 hammer on all river tiles.

In the short term, settling right there gave the city tile +1 commerce because of the silk, which partially compensates for the +1 hammer on the hill.

 

[Snaaty]

On BtS, settling next to river is paramount. Tessa will be a production powerhouse, and, with BtS higher pollution, having two more health is having one more workshop. Also, the river allows the levee building, which is +1 hammer on all river tiles.

In the short term, settling right there gave the city tile +1 commerce because of the silk, which partially compensates for the +1 hammer on the hill.

Had forgotten about the levee thingy... ...your right off course, rivers rock now in BtS

 

[uberfish]

BtS settling decisions can be quite difficult when it's a question of trading off a slightly better position now for river access that will make the city considerably better in the late game.

By the way that's the most land I've ever seen taken on deity by peaceful REX, pretty impressive even if Roosevelt was very slow.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

By the way that's the most land I've ever seen taken on deity by peaceful REX, pretty impressive even if Roosevelt was very slow.

So far, some things went good, some not so much. I'm glad we're pass the initial phase and we have a shot to victory.

I feel the Liberalism moment is important in heading in the right - or the wrong - direction. Roosevelt looks weak, but is even more slaving, drafting, and ultimately postponing growing into a decent empire worth the conquest?

I'd appreciate opinions, especially by you and the other deity players who contribute in the thread.

Also, how do you deal with the deity AI bent on cultural victories? It is definately superior to their spacerace, and, unfortunately, mine too.

 

[uberfish]

I feel the Liberalism moment is important in heading in the right - or the wrong - direction. Roosevelt looks weak, but is even more slaving, drafting, and ultimately postponing growing into a decent empire worth the conquest?

Usually I try to take more land from a backwards neighbour in the renaissance, but I guess the problem in this case is going to be Mali culture. I think I would probably go for Roosevelt's southern 3 cities and try to force a capitulation.

Also, how do you deal with the deity AI bent on cultural victories? It is definately superior to their spacerace, and, unfortunately, mine too.

This is where luck comes in I guess, I find they usually get invaded and defeated by the warmonger AIs in my games because they use culture slider and fall behind in military tech.

 

[Giaur]

@US: I use spies damaging some buildings: cathedrals, theatres, monasteries. Forcing civic switch from Free speach to whatever one. However on deity there is completely another time scale. All (including you) tech rapidly. On the good side is that it strikes AI's culture. So there is even thesis that on deity there is more difficult to achieve cultural victory. And I also keep several marine transports near the city which is pretender to Legendary Culture or even better - inside this city.

 

[Flamer123]

i haven't played deity before, but i have a lot of exp with immortal (though agg ai), but i usually go for domination victory.

kinda long post :

1) I don't know if it's possible right now or not, but i always try to cause ai to fight with each other as often as possible to slow tech down, but i fear now is a bit too late for that. boudica is the one u should shake up to recognizing she's a warmonger, but that depends on how friendly u are to her and her to the rest.

2) In ur situation i would probably decide now if i'm aiming for domination victory or diplo victory. i believe that cultural/space victory highly depends on luck on high diff levels.

3) I think diplo victory is the easier now - form an alliance with both Roosevelt and Mansa.
No matter what, imho, u'll have to take one other civilization out. The reason is i don't think that even with mansa and roosevelt u'll have enough population to win a diplo victory even when u secure the U.N (keep a GE for late game, if u don't secure the U.N mansa will have a higher pop so u're dead anyway).
Moreover, if u want to have any chance of getting the U.N first, u'll have to have double mansa's pop to be close to him on tech.
had it been any other leaders but mansa and roose i would say let them start the fight, and then u'll join with those + modifiers for "mutual struggle", but they're too peaceful for that, and since boudica is far, no hope in that either.
the problem is how and when do u start fighting with someone and make mansa+roose join u, cause u won't have techs to bribe them.

4) If ur going domination, roose has a big X marks the spot target on his head, but then u'll have to go against mansa, and u'll be the world villan since everyone are friendly to each other. I don't know if u can survive that on deity.

5) About AI beating u by culture victory - the time when a civ is close to gaining a culture victory, is end game when tanks r there. if it's mansa/roose u have to try to beat their culture to U.N. if it's any of the others, send tanks on a razing mission to one of the cities of legendary culture and u'll gain enough time to win diplo.

and ofcourse u've earned it on the way u've played so far:

 

[vicawoo]

Depends. In the case of Education, I starved the capital for 2 GS, losing 1 pop to gain 1 turn for the start of Liberalism research. Generally speaking, growing is fast in CIV and it is good to grow your cities as soon as whipping the most important buildings and accumulating the gpp for the most important GP is done.

I only build workers in my second/third city. From that point on, developed cities build workers for my new cities.

Techs on deity are very expensive. There are a lot of turns between Fishing and a two tech beeline to AH. And the clams are better, one more food and commerce v. one more hammer.

Thanks for answering. But clams get the same food as sheep on a plains until you get a lighthouse.
So for education, you're timing your specialists vs food so you have amassed almost 2 GS GPP within one population's food bar (with the starvation burst at the end)?

 

[Flamer123]

By the way, I still didn't understand ur logic of going for FE instead of CE for Justinian. I don't want to turn it into the same debate all over again, but u're not philosophical, u can't construct the pyramids nor have u tried to start a war with the civ that has built it, and u're playing a very peaceful game so enemies aren't pillaging ur land.
cottage will reach village and get u +4 gold in 30 turns, and more later on.

The only shortcoming is the lack of GS. I think u could have gotten liberalism first had u went CE instead and be in better position now, but i'm not sure - do u think liberalism on deity can only be won by FE?

 

[Snaaty]

@ Flamer123:

The best and fastest way to get to lib is via GS and lightbulbing... ...so it doesn´t matter if you are playing CE or FE, as long as you have one city generate enough GP´s

I also would have tried to turn one city earlier into a cottage heaven (with all the FP´s), but that´s just a matter of play, earlygame a FE is equal when having enough food and some gold/silver/gems around because of the producitvity bonus (whipwhip).

...

@ Unconquered Sun:

How far are you away from rifles (I mean turn wize)? Do you think you can get them before Mansa has them?

I think you don´t have enough land and cities to compete with mansa in science once he reaches pp and dem, so I think you have to go to war with him anyways (better sooner then later), but the time you reach rifles compared to mansa is important. If you can reach them only some turns before Mansa, ignore America and go for Mansa right away taking out his offensive forces with your superiour army, taking cities with equal troops against a builder (=Mansa) is possible with trebs and enought drafting. Builders usually haven´t very much troops around in BtS when not bordering directly with a warmonger

America you can conquer later, they should be backwards, Mali not I think

 

[Flamer123]

early game i agree that FE is equal to CE, but i think that the lack of CE will hurt later on - after all he needs to compete in tech in deity.

my question about lightbulbing still remains - assuming ur tech rate is equal for CE/FE economy, how many lightbulbs do u need to consistently get to liberalism first on deity? let's assume 3 GS - so u need 1 city to produce 2 scientists for 100 years (100+200+300)/6. let's say it's not enough and u need 2 cities to do that - fine - do that cause liberalism is important, but to give u a fighting chance later on, the rest of the cities should all have CE.

by the way, on immortal (Agg ai), i consistently reach liberalism with no need for lightbulbing, just settle/academy.

 

[Bureaucracy]

What does the acronym REX stand for exactly?

 

[uberfish]

Rapid EXpansion

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Rapid Early Expansion.

Dudes, Unconquered Sun already said he's going to cottage everything over at some point, around Democracy IIRC.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

By the way, I still didn't understand ur logic of going for FE instead of CE for Justinian. I don't want to turn it into the same debate all over again, but u're not philosophical, u can't construct the pyramids nor have u tried to start a war with the civ that has built it, and u're playing a very peaceful game so enemies aren't pillaging ur land.
cottage will reach village and get u +4 gold in 30 turns, and more later on.

The only shortcoming is the lack of GS. I think u could have gotten liberalism first had u went CE instead and be in better position now, but i'm not sure - do u think liberalism on deity can only be won by FE?

On Warlords, deity peacemongers get liberalism around 300 AD. On BtS, around 700-800 AD, so, in theory, a high commerce capital might be able to beat them to lib on BtS.

However, lightbulbing is very very powerful when GPs are cheap. I used my second, third and fourth GS to bulb 4392 beakers for 900 gpp: therefore a scientist in my capital, running under pacifism and national epic, produced 44 beakers/turn from gpp alone. This early gpp-beaker rate is unbeatable by any amount of commerce generated, not even by the perfect ToA CE capital.

In my game, cottaging Constatinple was weak due to lack cottage tiles. At best it can support seven cottages. In pure theory, Constantinople can work its four food sources, run 7 scientists, and work 7 cottages, but in reality getting and maintaining 18 pop for the Lib race wasn't happening. What happened was the scientists outclassed the cottages. Constatinople is best suited for GP farming and whip production. Out of my other cities, the four built east focus on production mostly (both mines and whip) as they are the natural army-producers and also they required more culture buildings in peacetime to withstand American influence; one (Numidian) has towns; and the rest are brand new.

In the short run irrigations will pay off by rapidly restoring whipped pop. The Byzantine UB allows control of massive amounts of whip, draft, and war weariness unhappiness, at the expense of the slider. The slider setting hurts cottages and trade, not specialists.

In the long run, transition to CE with GP farms is an option; the other option is sticking to full FE.

IMO transition is more useful now in the slow BtS pace. On Warlods, I've had games where losing 35 turns on deity was unfeasable no matter what the benefits.

On the other hand, full FE in late game is generally underestimated. It can match CE research pace while retaining greater flexibility. The downside is the enourmous health and happy cap required.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

@ Unconquered Sun:

How far are you away from rifles (I mean turn wize)? Do you think you can get them before Mansa has them?

I think you don´t have enough land and cities to compete with mansa in science once he reaches pp and dem, so I think you have to go to war with him anyways (better sooner then later), but the time you reach rifles compared to mansa is important. If you can reach them only some turns before Mansa, ignore America and go for Mansa right away taking out his offensive forces with your superiour army, taking cities with equal troops against a builder (=Mansa) is possible with trebs and enought drafting. Builders usually haven´t very much troops around in BtS when not bordering directly with a warmonger

America you can conquer later, they should be backwards, Mali not I think

Attacking Mansa. I like that. I doubt I can get Rifles and draft before Mansa gets them and upgrades; I can attack him with cuirassiers while he has longbows and pikes tho. Moreover, I can drag him in war v. the Ottomans first.

What I'll most likely do is build my army and see how weak Roose is. If he is as weak as now, I'll capture NY and Wash in 3 turns; after that he'll prolly vassalize. With Roosevelt as a vassal and Suleiman as a tool Mansa will be in dire straits.

The last big unknown is who the hell Boudica's been preparing to DoW for 1,000 years?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Update ETA: Sunday

 

[Snaaty]

@ Unconquered Sun:

Sounds like a plan

But don´t bribe Sul into the war with Mansa too early... ...given enough time to draft/whip, a small/fake war between Sul and Mansa would only make things harder