Keystone Pipeline

[kochman]

The problem is... and I am not saying this smiling, I am saying this frowning, because I wish it was going the other way.

For whatever reason ___________________ (insert conspiracy here), alternative energy is not working out in the USA right now. We spent hundreds and hundreds of millions on this, and these companies are dropping like flies...
In other words, in the USA, it is still not a viable alternative.

Recent failures (all Stimulus recipients):
Evergreen Solar Inc. received $5.3 million of stimulus cash
Ener1 $118m
Solyndra received $500M
SpectraWatt received a $500,000 from the stimulus package
Mountain Plaza Inc. $424,000 (from TN Dept of Energy, which received $2M in stimulus)
Amonix, Inc. received $5.9M

I read that China poured way more into the industry, thus undercutting our efforts because even with our incredibly low wages in the USA for blue collar workers, we can't compete with Chinese wages...

 

[Silurian]

That is not a failure of alternative energy but a failure of the US manufactring industry.

You would have been better buying the cheapest solar panels with this money. Then you should have fitted them on suitable buildings (schools, prisons, military) in the sunniest areas with the highest unemployment.

 

[Cutlass]

That's not a failure of the US manufacturing industry, but rather a failure of the US investment industry. Investment dollar don't go to the right places.

 

[Silurian]

I stand corrected.

 

[Murky]

44 SENATORS BEHIND KEYSTONE BILL TOOK $23 MILLION IN CAMPAIGN CASH FROM BIG OIL
Washington, D.C. –Forty-four Senators who introduced legislation today backing the controversial Keystone XL pipeline received $23.4 million in campaign contributions from the oil and gas industry since 1989, according to analysis by 350.org and Public Campaign Action Fund. The figures reflected data coded by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics and available on their website and include contributions through September 30, 2011. Fourth quarter filings are due to the Federal Election Commission tomorrow.

The bill, which was announced today by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) and cosponsored by 42 GOP senators and one Democratic Senator, would approve the Keystone XL project despite the Obama Administration’s rejection of its permit following months of intensifying protest against it and studies downplaying its potential economic impact.
http://campaignmoney.org/press-room/2012/01/30/44-senators-behind-keystone-bill-took-23-million

 

[El_Machinae]

It seems that the obvious problem is campaign financing. Of course politicians can be bought

 

[bhsup]

Can you prove that the donations influenced their votes? I seem to recall one Democrat not that long ago proudly proclaiming that the donations they received had no bearing on their votes.

 

[useless]

Clearly it is completely unrelated, because as we all know there isn't a problem at all with lobbying in politics.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Can you prove that the donations influenced their votes? I seem to recall one Democrat not that long ago proudly proclaiming that the donations they received had no bearing on their votes.

2 things.

1. Really?
2. 43 GOP? Uhm ... quick, look there! A democrat!

 

[useless]

2 things.

1. Really?
2. 43 GOP? Uhm ... quick, look there! A democrat!

But don't you see, the oil companies were just being charitable

that is why they donated the money to senators

instead of charities

it makes perfect sense

 

[El_Machinae]

Can you prove that the donations influenced their votes? I seem to recall one Democrat not that long ago proudly proclaiming that the donations they received had no bearing on their votes.

That Democrat is wrong, and is just showing that he didn't understand their own subconscious.

How do you prove donations caused influence? Well, I guess the metric would be face-time with lobbyists. Do the lobbyists of campaign donors get more opportunity to speak to the Senators or their aides?

I think the entire issue is fairly obvious. The politicians are utterly dependent upon their large financers. Utterly.

I think that campaign finance reform is an obvious target. Get rid of the necessity to prostitute to the golden goose, and all of a sudden the hired experts can be intelligent.

 

[kochman]

Quick question...
Who was the biggest recipient of campaign money from BP (yes, the BP of the Gulf Spill) in the 2008 election cycle?

Spoiler :

If you guessed, Barack O'bama, you are correct!

And, miraculously, oil prices rise and so do profits... strange bedfellows politicians choose

I guess we will see who takes the cake for 2012...

 

[kochman]

I think that campaign finance reform is an obvious target. Get rid of the necessity to prostitute to the golden goose, and all of a sudden the hired experts can be intelligent.

This would help... but corporations can't be the only target while unions are allowed to give without limit...
I don't have the answer for how it should be fixed... and the people who can fix it are already bought and sold anyhow.

 

[warpus]

Can you prove that the donations influenced their votes? I seem to recall one Democrat not that long ago proudly proclaiming that the donations they received had no bearing on their votes.

Why would lobbyists continue giving your politicians millions of dollars if it *wasn't* working?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Patriotism.

*straight face*

Spoiler :

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Can you prove that the donations influenced their votes? I seem to recall one Democrat not that long ago proudly proclaiming that the donations they received had no bearing on their votes.

It's a complete and utter coincidence, you say, that the industries and companies which spend the most money on lobbying get the most government subsidies (the oil industry gets something like a 5000% return on their investment in lobbying), favorable programs (promoting things like the Keystone pipeline, government willingness to bailout, lack of investment in mass transit, hamstrung health insurance reform, tax cuts and exclusions), favoritism in policy-making (President and Congress consulting CEOs on how to make jobs/what to do economically) and contracting (such as with the rebuilding of Iraq)?

 

[kochman]

It's a complete and utter coincidence, you say, that the industries and companies which spend the most money on lobbying get the most government subsidies (the oil industry gets something like a 5000% return on their investment in lobbying), favorable programs (promoting things like the Keystone pipeline, government willingness to bailout, lack of investment in mass transit, hamstrung health insurance reform, tax cuts and exclusions), favoritism in policy-making (President and Congress consulting CEOs on how to make jobs/what to do economically) and contracting (such as with the rebuilding of Iraq)?

I agree with much of this, but can you please elaborate on "government willingness to bailout"? And, lack of investment in mass transit (which is a local project, not a federal level project)?

 

[Cutlass]

A very high amount of all transportation spending is federal, not local. Many projects would never get off the ground without the federal money behind them.

 

[kochman]

A very high amount of all transportation spending is federal, not local. Many projects would never get off the ground without the federal money behind them.

Nonsense... they wouldn't need the federal money if other federal disasters like medicare/medicaid weren't draining the local revenue...

Did NYC or SF build their systems with federal money?

And, "all transportation" is the category under which "mass transit" is only a portion... so, let's keep it real.

 

[Cutlass]

Nonsense... they wouldn't need the federal money if other federal disasters like medicare/medicaid weren't draining the local revenue...

Did NYC or SF build their systems with federal money?

And, "all transportation" is the category under which "mass transit" is only a portion... so, let's keep it real.

What's nonsense? Since the New Deal, and in many cases even before, it has been a reality that the feds have been a major financing portion of all transit, mass and not. That's just reality. The states just aren't going to spend the money. And bringing Medicare into it is just a distraction from reality.