King of the World #20: Pericles

Might want to be wary with your expansion... since the Romans, French, English, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese, Russians and Scandinavians all have yet to spawn in Europe while the Turks and Arabs have yet to spawn in the Near East... and believe me, there are few things more irritating in this mod than having settled cities flip to a newly spawning civilization then watching your units disappear as they defect to the usurpers. So yeah, if you're planning on owning Europe, you might want to wait until they spawn, rather than suffer city flips. So... go for the UHV then? If you can achieve it that is as it sounds a bit tricky. Anyway, good luck!
 
On Iron in the NW hill. Yep, they are probably right.
The Iron for greece on the earth 1000AD map is where the wine is....so yeah, forget my settle on the marble idea and go for the iron if the general strategy is get crossbows as early as possible and take the world by force.

On those 'in-the-know' on how Rhys works. Totally copy that. Was worried about the "new civ spawn" but didn't know how it worked...If the plan is to pwn the world by force, then maybe owning turkey ASAP would work for the firmly controlled production cities. However, I'm still a big fan of targeting Rome once you have an advantage. It sounds like Rome starts the game with Greece. Of all the cities you could possess early (and keep without a Rhys flip) Rome is a great city (on the earth maps) for any type of city design.
Then wait and see for new civs to sprout, and pounce on them as soon as they do. Even so, odds are if you won't be ready to really go to war until crossbows, it's a good chance that spain, france, and england will just about be emerging as rome starts to fall (400-500 AD??)
 
on second settler disposition:

I am guessing that unit on the ship is another settler, because Neal suggested in the OP that he might expand in crete. Not a fan of a strategy requiring military ultimately and having the second city being a moai statues-required kind of place. Sure it's defensible, and if the strategy was wonderspam and get say, colossus or great lighthouse early it would be interesting,
but I almost like the idea better of Athens being settled near Thessalonaika, and putting Sparta right on top of the marble (or near enough of it to exploit the hammers if early worker builds pre-size 3 is in order.... Even then, I'm thinking Crete is the least useful, Sparta second, and if the plan is to truly frustrate and box in rome, using the second settle to do just that....scout the roman peninsula, gauge Rome's strength...and if Rome isn't big enough to really challenge early, maybe even settle in sicily or corsica and begin a culture spam. of course, the unknown factor of wasting turns scouting costs time. But Syracuse and Corsica might be the only options of the "box in rome" strategy if rhys would flip any settled city in the slavic, spanish french or german regions. I just like the idea of Sparta and Athens/Thessaly working together in the opening, I guess....
 
on second settler disposition:

I am guessing that unit on the ship is another settler, because Neal suggested in the OP that he might expand in crete. Not a fan of a strategy requiring military ultimately and having the second city being a moai statues-required kind of place. Sure it's defensible, and if the strategy was wonderspam and get say, colossus or great lighthouse early it would be interesting,
but I almost like the idea better of Athens being settled near Thessalonaika, and putting Sparta right on top of the marble (or near enough of it to exploit the hammers if early worker builds pre-size 3 is in order.... Even then, I'm thinking Crete is the least useful, Sparta second, and if the plan is to truly frustrate and box in rome, using the second settle to do just that....scout the roman peninsula, gauge Rome's strength...and if Rome isn't big enough to really challenge early, maybe even settle in sicily or corsica and begin a culture spam. of course, the unknown factor of wasting turns scouting costs time. But Syracuse and Corsica might be the only options of the "box in rome" strategy if rhys would flip any settled city in the slavic, spanish french or german regions. I just like the idea of Sparta and Athens/Thessaly working together in the opening, I guess....

It is hard to box in Rome from my experience with how RFC does the spawns. There have been many times I have "given" my enemies their strongest cities because they were to close to the spawn area. The best course of action is to wait till they spawn, wait about 10-15 turns and then wipe them out. Don't try to "box" them in early unless you are 100% sure the city won't flip. Patience is actually something that is very important in RFC.

EDIT: FYI I am agreeing with the above post lol.
 
^ That further exacerbates my suggestion of a strong capital/production city block that controls the aegean peninsula. and....use the galley (with one phalanx aboard) to go to egypt and worker-steal while building opening units and buildings?
 
Hi Neal, looking forward to this one. I've played RFC before so I put my stuff in spoilers, it's mostly just basics for RFC and Greek strategy.
Spoiler :
Settle Athens in place, it's a very strong capital especially with the Moai Statues and you really need the iron hill for production. Constantinople is a great GP farm with the double sheep and seafood, and my third city is founded up the Adriatic coast next to the copper. Later you can either build Sparta or a city in northern Africa for the rest of the seafood.

If you're going for the UHV you basically need to go for it from the beginning, there is not a lot of wiggle room here. They're fun but it's also interesting to take the Ancient Greeks to space. Oracle for Machinery is a solid move in either case. You will be facing a lot of Barbarian pressure in the dark ages so crossbows will help there. Great Wall might be tough to get but is a very strong wonder. There are a lot of barbs. Did I mention the barbs? There are going to be lots.

Also, you get 1-2 free wins against barbarians, so like your first couple barbarian battles, no matter the odds, are a guaranteed win. I used to save mine up for barb Triremes, but I think in the latest RFC patch there is less pirate pressure.

Seeing as how your Greeks are a brand new civ in the world, your Phalanxes are the top of the line elite units, use them while you've got an advantage. Babylon and Egypt are both juicy targets for conquering, especially since neither will have copper yet which means you're up against warriors or at the worst, archers. Persia and Rome on the other hand are not pushovers, but those ancient wars are a lot of fun.

Keep an eye on your stability, it's the measure of how well you're doing as an empire, but doing things like razing cities or having periods of anarchy will lower it. By doing enough damage to another civ you'll be able to wreck their stability and they'll collapse into independant civs.
Greece.gif

This is the Greek stability map. Dark Greens are your historical area, don't let anyone else get these. Yellows are other civs starting areas that are also your historical area, good spots to conquer. Orange is anyones land and red is land that does not belong to you. This is not to say you can't conquer all of Europe, but it's safer stability wise to stick to your own areas.
 
Hi Neal, looking forward to this one. I've played RFC before so I put my stuff in spoilers, it's mostly just basics for RFC and Greek strategy.
Spoiler :
Settle Athens in place, it's a very strong capital especially with the Moai Statues and you really need the iron hill for production. Constantinople is a great GP farm with the double sheep and seafood, and my third city is founded up the Adriatic coast next to the copper. Later you can either build Sparta or a city in northern Africa for the rest of the seafood.

If you're going for the UHV you basically need to go for it from the beginning, there is not a lot of wiggle room here. They're fun but it's also interesting to take the Ancient Greeks to space. Oracle for Machinery is a solid move in either case. You will be facing a lot of Barbarian pressure in the dark ages so crossbows will help there. Great Wall might be tough to get but is a very strong wonder. There are a lot of barbs. Did I mention the barbs? There are going to be lots.

Also, you get 1-2 free wins against barbarians, so like your first couple barbarian battles, no matter the odds, are a guaranteed win. I used to save mine up for barb Triremes, but I think in the latest RFC patch there is less pirate pressure.

Seeing as how you're Greeks are a brand new civ in the world, your Phalanxes are the top of the line elite units in the world, use them while you've got an advantage. Babylon and Egypt are both juicy targets for conquering, especially since neither will have copper yet which means you're up against warriors or at the worst, archers. Persia and Rome on the other hand are not pushovers, but those ancient wars are a lot of fun.

Keep an eye on your stability, it's the measure of how well you're doing as an empire, but doing things like razing cities or having periods of anarchy will lower it. By doing enough damage to another civ you'll be able to wreck their stability and they'll collapse into independant civs.
Greece.gif

This is the Greek stability map. Dark Greens are your historical area, don't let anyone else get these. Yellows are other civs starting areas that are also your historical area, good spots to conquer. Orange is anyones land and red is land that does not belong to you. This is not to say you can't conquer all of Europe, but it's safer stability wise to stick to your own areas.

Where did you get that information in map? Just wondering as it would be useful for my current game as China if they have one for them. Also, I agree with what you said.
 
First of all, you made pretty good deductions for being someone unfamiliar with RFC.

I am very familiar with the standard Earth map and the Earth 1000 scenario, so if Rhys throws a TON of differences into play, I understand if my suggestions are foolish....but based on what Strijder20 says (and based on the map and history mechanics) you are going to face Persia and Rome early....if Rhys hasn't fixed the AI's inability to do amphibious invasions, you won't have to fear Egypt much.

One of the mayor things in RFC is the way how war-declaring works. Some civilizations are now more bound to attack another certain civilization. Persia and Rome both like picking on Greece. Egypt is a complete peacemonger and won't attack anyone.


So my suggestion is that I agree on settling on the hill to access the sheep (settling on the marble to get a quicker access to wonderbuild goo might be useful, but the city won't grow as fast, losing the great person spam leverage)...and then, I would hit Rome before Persia. Persia is going to spam immortals, and you already have the answer to that in pocket. Strijder says Rome already has Praetorians, so I agree, get crossbows and head that direction.
Yeah, sounds fine to me, but then you are deteriorating the spot of Byzantium.
Rome gets Praetorians on spawn (750 BC). Crossbows are indeed one useful way of beating them off, but if he wants to go for the UHV, oracling Machinery might not be the best choice. He might have to take one of the wonder techs to be on time.

Also, you have proven in your other conquests that Europe is chock-full of the best places to build cities (and again, if the AI still can't handle amphib well, you are guaranteed another Musket-spamming base later in the United Kingdom/Ireland) I would just guess that regardless, an early possession of Europe would be superior to an early possession of the Hills of Turkey and the plains/flood plains of Persia....but if small, production cities spamming units sounds more savory than larger, wonderbuilding/vanity project/great person farms of Paris, Rome and London....then persia might be a good target...(Rome in 1000AD tends to be a very versatile city for production OR culture/GP growth though...)

Nope, that's not how RFC works. If you go outside your 'historical area', you will suffer stability hits. Historical area is where the civilization was in real history, by the way.
On top of that, spawning civs 'convert' all units and cities in their historical area to themselves, so Berlin will flip to the Germans at 700 AD in case you found it.

Even though I understand the value of settling 1 NW (get on a hill, get closer to future targets (because the best defense is the best offense) and of course, leverage the sheep, I would put that the sheep will still be 2 tiles (and a peak) away from your settled capital. Until a worker can take advantage, etc...you might have to deal with an invasion called by rome or persia by the time a worker gets out there. So, possibly another risk, settle 1SW on the marble. Since settling on anything non-food bonused results in enough food to grow, you get the marble resource immediately, a hammer and can exploit the much-needed 2 gold and 2 food from the fish as you tech towards crossbows, and more likely that one work boat could be protected by your "fleet" more than the pasture could, and more likely if you are going to leverage gold in Athens plus leverage your philosophical trait, odds are you are going to build a lighthouse early anyway.

Settling on the marble? Interesting, but you'll lose a tiny bit of production.
And there are no 'traits' in RFC, only UP (unique powers). But you might have meant that.
Greece's UP is +150% Great Person Points until the end of the Middle Ages.



Even considering that, if the plan is to come out of the gate early with a beeline to crossbows, in the meantime building units to keep strength up enough to dissuade persia and Rome, settle in place or settling 1NW as the original idea both have advantages (in place to gain 1 turn of production, 1NW to get the defense plus the two seafood resources, which I would expect will be developed before the sheep) . I am unsure if monarchy is part of the original plan. But if it was, also settling 1N on the wine might be in order for the expected future.

That is, if he doesn't go for the UHV. If he goes for the UHV, mercenaries will be efficient (and almost obliged), as he can't really spare the production.

However, already having one (two?) galleys, you also definitely have a quick way to amphib assault that goody hut on a risk...or maybe even attempt a cheap-quick rush at Cairo. Even so, fail on that risk, and I think the game would become...difficult.

Knowing Egypt, there is a chance their only garrisons are warriors...

Based on how you (successfully) war, Neal, I bet even with the Rhys mod, monarch level is going to be a cakewalk, especially if you play it safe...

And I don't think so ;) Unless he goes for the UHV, he'll be stuck with a relative small empire until Communism (which allows larger empires without collapse).
 
^ Great stuff Strijder....instead of counter commenting to all of them....it begs one question....does it make sense then, to have a long term Conquest/domination strategy in Rhys at all? I can imagine having a strategy of conquering only those established and close by, then stockpiling armies, wait for civilization spawn, attack immediately on spawn.....

if that still makes sense, it still sounds like at least taking it to Rome (and now based on suggestions, stomping Cairo/Thebes/Alexandria/flood plains wholesome goodness) makes sense and then centralizing and waiting......or....just say forget conquest and leverage that 150% GP and wonderspam.

Even though the byzantines controlled greece pretty much until the very end in real history, I was more of an impression that wasn't from conquest, that was from ...well Byzantium "spawning" from Rome after an 'unstability' and "conquered" greece was 'awarded' to the flipped byzantines....So when it comes to turkey/byzantium....I will still GUESS the play might be similar to earth 1000AD....go christian....buddy up to Justy....and you've got a meat shield against all of asia as long as you deem fit....and let Justy deal with his stuff flipping later to the ottomans?
 
^ Great stuff Strijder....instead of counter commenting to all of them....it begs one question....does it make sense then, to have a long term Conquest/domination strategy in Rhys at all? I can imagine having a strategy of conquering only those established and close by, then stockpiling armies, wait for civilization spawn, attack immediately on spawn.....

Never attack a civ on its spawn in Rhys. Your units will flip and it will be a mess.
 
^ Great stuff Strijder....instead of counter commenting to all of them....it begs one question....does it make sense then, to have a long term Conquest/domination strategy in Rhys at all? I can imagine having a strategy of conquering only those established and close by, then stockpiling armies, wait for civilization spawn, attack immediately on spawn.....

if that still makes sense, it still sounds like at least taking it to Rome (and now based on suggestions, stomping Cairo/Thebes/Alexandria/flood plains wholesome goodness) makes sense and then centralizing and waiting......or....just say forget conquest and leverage that 150% GP and wonderspam.

Even though the byzantines controlled greece pretty much until the very end in real history, I was more of an impression that wasn't from conquest, that was from ...well Byzantium "spawning" from Rome after an 'unstability' and "conquered" greece was 'awarded' to the flipped byzantines....So when it comes to turkey/byzantium....I will still GUESS the play might be similar to earth 1000AD....go christian....buddy up to Justy....and you've got a meat shield against all of asia as long as you deem fit....and let Justy deal with his stuff flipping later to the ottomans?

As Far as I know, there is no Byzantine Spawn in RFC, they only exist as an independant-style civ in the 600AD start.

I favour building 1 city in Greece, 1 city further North, 1 in turkey, and just wonderspamming for a while. After all, one of your UHV conditions is to wonderspam, so if you can do that and get circumnavigation then you get a free Golden Age! :)

DT
Watching Intently :shifty:
 
Never attack a civ on its spawn in Rhys. Your units will flip and it will be a mess.

...well, I meant, wait until the civ appears...what...wait 1 more turn? then attack....still unsure of the mechanics...it sounds like when a civ spawns, even if it appears in an area where the human player civ isn't dominant (or even established) EVERYTHING (your and other ai units) in the culture area flip?...so you wouldn't even want your stack of doom anywhere NEAR a tile with even no culture in the BFC of Paris circa 400?
 
...well, I meant, wait until the civ appears...what...wait 1 more turn? then attack....still unsure of the mechanics...it sounds like when a civ spawns, even if it appears in an area where the human player civ isn't dominant (or even established) EVERYTHING (your and other ai units) in the culture area flip?...so you wouldn't even want your stack of doom anywhere NEAR a tile with even no culture in the BFC of Paris circa 400?

Yes, if your stack is in a secret, unmarked area near a new civ, it will defect to the new civ. If you have cities in a secret, unmarked area, they can flip to the new civ, regardless of their happiness or culture or any other variable within your control. A fun gaming experience is not high on the list of priorities for the mod. :rolleyes:
 
^ sometimes I've laughed out loud at "fun" things like that...but yeah, it's less of a "haha" laugh and more of that laugh that only supervillians in TV and the movies use...

this COULD be a challenge on monarch for someone who is very good at conquest....

one...more...attempt...at...longterm conquest strategy....
Spoiler :
since byzantium won't spawn, and everyone apparently starts with "one" superpower, and greeces' is 150% GP...at this point, Constantinople makes more sense even though it isn't seen on the map (also guessing that opens the black sea only to Constantinople's posessor). STILL target Rome (nobody says rome, once taken would flip), play persia sweet if possible. Choice of Constantinople would be for quick growth to leverage the 150% GP points. Regardless of choice of leveraging wonders or going for military strength, military would still need to be built for eventually taking Rome. Option to take out Egypt (similar thoughts as to rome, it won't flip and would be a great GP farm along the nile) or workersteal)....Until late middle ages (or until Europe spawns most of the civs/nations we know today) hold tight, leveraging (conquered) rome, constantinople and athens). Once civs in europe appear, assume they will all mostly go christian. Using the + diplo for shared religions, begin using hopefully gained tech/GP superiority to declare and take newly spawned european civs one by one. If it turns out that religion doesn't matter enough to offset the "declaring war on friend" diplo in rhys, then forget all of europe and buddy up to persia AND the future arabian/ottomans, go islam and hope they turn their attentions eastwardly as you aim towards europe...


but, as I hear more and more cogent arguments against the classic domination/conquest steamroll.....I'm thinking more of a culture/space/diplo win might actually work

still a big fan of taking out Egypt and Rome Early.
 
@the above: Rome would be fine if you can manage to beat their units(if he doesn't patch he might be able to squat on Rome(settle the tile Rome starts on before they spawn) and then they go to Austria and don't do anything). Egypt would also be possible but Arabia'll flip the cities. Also IIRC Greece receives research penalties from the middle ages onwards.
 
^ sometimes I've laughed out loud at "fun" things like that...but yeah, it's less of a "haha" laugh and more of that laugh that only supervillians in TV and the movies use...

this COULD be a challenge on monarch for someone who is very good at conquest....

but, as I hear more and more cogent arguments against the classic domination/conquest steamroll.....I'm thinking more of a culture/space/diplo win might actually work

Oh Yes, the "haha" factors in RFC can be like that.

And it is less a challenge of conquest than it is a challenge of managing stability and spawning. I would say hopes of Conquest/Domination are pretty much doomed here. I would say space/culture/diplo were all good bets, although I'm not sure how well suited Greece is for culture. I'd say most of the good spots for a 3rd city will flip to Turkey/Germany/Rome, so if you want to go culture invading Rome is probably a good bet. I would actually quite enjoy seeing a culture win here, given the difficulty of getting a good 3rd City.

DT
 
Oh Yes, the "haha" factors in RFC can be like that.

And it is less a challenge of conquest than it is a challenge of managing stability and spawning. I would say hopes of Conquest/Domination are pretty much doomed here. I would say space/culture/diplo were all good bets, although I'm not sure how well suited Greece is for culture. I'd say most of the good spots for a 3rd city will flip to Turkey/Germany/Rome, so if you want to go culture invading Rome is probably a good bet. I would actually quite enjoy seeing a culture win here, given the difficulty of getting a good 3rd City.

DT

A third nonflippable city? After killing Rome, Rome won't flip...After Carthage dies, Carthage won't flip unless it revolts(same for Rome), but Athens and Byzantium will flip to the Ottomans so if you use those you have to win by ~1200AD.
 
Haven't played RFC before, but just from reading the above... can't you invade Egypt early for an unflippable city or two? It sounds like they will be easy pickings and not in too-unstable an area.
 
Well, I hid my earlier post because I dunno if we should be spoiling all this stuff for Neal. You only get to play something for the first time once y'know. Anyways, the three I suggested won't ever flip if placed in the correct spots, they'll only lose some tiles to newly spawned civs but they get them back eventually anyways. Byzantum/Constantinople won't flip to Turkey, Turkey will just spawn in Asia Minor and steal all your western tiles for a while.

And I'm pretty sure you can (or at least you could in earlier versions) take out a civ without any of your units defecting by killing their entire stack on the turn they spawn.
 
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