Korea

[iOnlySignIn]

After Poland, Korea is another civ I can see a lot of room for improvement with. In this thread I will compile my ideas for Korea, mostly concerning its UHV and UP.

A pictorial demonstration of how awesome Korea is going to be after my changes:

Spoiler :

== UHVs ==

The UHVs is the aspect of Korea most in need for change IMO. Currently it is 2/3 poor man's China and 1/3 poor man's England. I can't imagine anyone would want to play a civ who's a watered down version of another 2 civs. Korea needs something unique and interesting. Examples:

Expansion:
* In this section East Asia means the following collection of civs: China, Korea, Japan, Tibet, Khmer, Indonesia, Mongolia, Thailand.

- Be the largest civ in East Asia in 920 AD.
This is actually realistic if you combine Unified Silla and Balhae, which are both (at least according to Koreans) Korean states.
I like this UHV because it's actually a combination of Culture and Military expansion.

- Be the most powerful civ in East Asia in 920 AD.
No culture, just pure Military. This is more to invoke the Silla - Tang War which the Koreans won.

Tech:

- Discover Alphabet and Printing Press before China does.
Korea's only rival in terms of discovering Printing Press first is China. Might as well add Alphabet to the list as it is extremely historically appropriate.

- Be the first to discover Printing Press and Education.
A slightly more challenging version (see UP suggestions in the next post - I have a new Korean UP that will make this completely feasible).

Late Game/Miscellaneous:

- Culture Flip 1 Japanese and 1 Chinese city by 2000 AD.
Idea from Tomorrow's Dawn. My new Korean UP (see next post) will make this a lot more feasible.

- Launch 3 ICBMs before any other civ does.
Since the previous UHV is about South Korea, North Korea deserves an UHV too.

- Culture Flip 1 Japanese and 1 Chinese city by 2000 AD and launch 3 ICBMs before any other civ does.
Or we could combine them into one.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

== Alternative UP ==

The Power of Defiance
+50% Defense in all cities and reduced Stability penalty for loosing cities and units.
Reduced Stability penalty here means: loosing cities will only cause minimal Stability hit (that you can recover by getting the city back or building a new city); loosing units will not cause any Stability hit.

Some has expressed concern that Korea's UB already signifies its education. Perhaps a UP for the same purpose would be redundant.

That got me thinking. What Korea lacks most in this game is military strength. It can do very little in the face of China's vastly superior technology, Japan's super elite training, or Mongolia's raw numbers and ridiculous UU. It gets crushed too easily. In reality Korea in its long history was never completely subjugated by a foreign power until the 20th century. Perhaps in game it can benefit from a military UP (for land war).

In the same way that Japan's UP is an uber version of the Charismatic Trait from BTS, this UP (Defiance) is an uber version of the Protective Trait. With a few important differences:
- The +50% Defense will be in the form of free Cultural Defense and all your units would benefit from it.
- It stacks on top of CG Promotions making it much more powerful than the Protective Trait.
- It can be used aggressively. The lack of Stability penalty from loosing units allows you to suicide stacks of Siege units with impunity. This represents the Hwacha UU without explicitly making it a unit in the game.

== UP ==

The Power of Education
Scientists, Artists are unlimited and provide +1 each.
This will give Korea an actual chance to compete with China directly for tech lead. It also synergizes with the UHV suggestions above.

Less powerful version:
Scientists are unlimited and provide +2 each.

== UU ==

Kobukson
Kobukson should obviously be the Korean UU instead of the Korean UP.
Unit Graphics for it already exists: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=209520
Replaces Ironclad. Requires Gunpowder, Replaceable Parts.
Strength 10.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I still standby the old Hallyu goal I suggested.

-Culture Flip 1 Japanese city & 1 Chinese city.

EDIT: Also, I would only consider Mongolia, China & Japan to be the other East Asian members. Perhaps Vietnam.
I would not classify the others as such, but I see the intent behind it as increasing the challenge level.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Don't worry, I fully intend to include that in the OP. It's under construction.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

== UP ==

The Power of Education
Scientists, Artists are unlimited and provide +1 each.
This will give Korea an actual chance to compete with China directly for tech lead. It also synergizes with the UHV suggestions above.

Good god

That is Civ5 Corea right there. It's also a little too general.
Comparatively, the rest of the East Asian states have had demonstrably similar
levels of education and it's not something terribly unique per se.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Good god

That is Civ5 Corea right there. It's also a little too general.
Comparatively, the rest of the East Asian states have had demonstrably similar
levels of education and it's not something terribly unique per se.

For most of history Korea's level of education is between that of China and Japan.

But unlike China and Japan, it needs help from its UP to maintain that position because it lacks cities. It also lacks the Chinese UP.

 

[Tigranes]

Did you get inspired by our discussion of Korean resources?

When I asked Leoreth why Korea made a cut at all, he said they were already BTS civilization so it was easy to add them. Vietnam won some wars against China and one more country, they had two different civilizations to chose from and yet they are not in the game!

 

[civ_king]

Did you get inspired by our discussion of Korean resources?

When I asked Leoreth why Korea made a cut at all, he said they were already BTS civilization so it was easy to add them. Vietnam won some wars against China and one more country, they had two different civilizations to chose from and yet they are not in the game!

Khmer after Thai spawn is Vietnam

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Did you get inspired by our discussion of Korean resources?

No. Korea needs a River (Han River) on Seoul but that's it. It's loaded with a ridiculous amount of resources already.

I was never satisfied with the representation of Korea in DoC. Some of the ideas in this thread were in the original 1700AD Scenario thread I made over a year ago.

For the UP I'm inspired by Korea's UP in RFCA, which (I believe) was taken from the Korean UP of CiV.

When I asked Leoreth why Korea made a cut at all, he said they were already BTS civilization so it was easy to add them. Vietnam won some wars against China and one more country, they had two different civilizations to chose from and yet they are not in the game!

There are already Khmer and Thai. Last thing we need is a 3rd civ in the same 5 tile by 5 tile region.

I would make a "Removal of Thailand" thread but Thailand does not deserve even that.

 

[UnholyMudcrab]

I definitely think Korea needs a bump in terms of historical area. The core is fine, but as it is, everywhere except Hanseong and Pyongyang bleed a lot into foreign areas. If Balhae can be used as a model, I think we can safely extend the historical area a tile or two inland along the coast to give those cities some breathing room.

Spoiler :

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I definitely think Korea needs a bump in terms of historical area. The core is fine, but as it is, everywhere except Hanseong and Pyongyang bleed a lot into foreign areas. If Balhae can be used as a model, I think we can safely extend the historical area a tile or two inland along the coast to give those cities some breathing room.

Spoiler :

I disagree.

The current smallness of Korea's stability map is not only historically appropriate (I can cover all of Balhae's realm using only Historical cities on the current Stability map), but also what makes Korea's expansion uniquely interesting and challenging.

Moreover Stability mechanics will be completely redesigned by Leoreth. Any change to Stability maps should wait till after that unless it's absolutely critical.

 

[Oregon Lee]

Yes! Please remove Korea's currently mediocre UP and UU

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Maybe Khmer could be replaced with Vietnam? There would be less overlap with Thailand (the two might actually coexist for more than a few turns!), and from what I've read, Vietnam was more Sinicized than Khmer, and won several wars against China.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Maybe Khmer could be replaced with Vietnam? There would be less overlap with Thailand (the two might actually coexist for more than a few turns!), and from what I've read, Vietnam was more Sinicized than Khmer, and won several wars against China.

Khmer is a much better designed and more interesting civ than Thailand IMO. So I don't understand why Khmer is being replaced whereas Thailand is not.

Vietnam was also a Chinese province (a province, not a Vassal like Korea was) for about half of its entire history, unlike Khmer. Which is the reason why it has been "more Sinicized".

 

[UnholyMudcrab]

I can cover all of Balhae's realm using only Historical cities on the current Stability map

Well, yeah, but the tile the city is on is the only one that's historical. All the other tiles in its border are going to be foreign.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Well, yeah, but the tile the city is on is the only one that's historical. All the other tiles in its border are going to be foreign.

The Stability penalty from that is actually extremely small. You can check it in the Stability breakdown screen - it should not be worse than -4.

And with the upcoming Stability redesign it may become nonexistent.

 

[UnholyMudcrab]

The Stability penalty from that is actually extremely small. You can check it in the Stability breakdown screen - it should not be worse than -4.

And with the upcoming Stability redesign it may become nonexistent.

Upcoming stability redesign?

Do tell more.

But yeah, that really doesn't sound too bad. And there are more pressing things with Korea than its stability map.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Upcoming stability redesign?

Do tell more.

Keep an eye open. And ask Leoreth - he's the boss, not me. I just bury him with (mostly good) ideas.

 

[Tigranes]

Khmer after Thai spawn is Vietnam

Only change in the name. We can't play them as such, same UU and UB, no Vietnamese UHVS. And they were prominent first! Long before Khmers...

What is the max number of civs that can be alive at any given point anyway? Me here just wondering is there any cap, theoretically?

 

[giant49er]

I really like the biggest East Asian Civ and discovering Printing Press and Education goals. I think those would be vast improvements over the current goals. I also like the first UP idea. It would be fun to use and it doesn't seem terribly OP, as Korea is a pretty small civ. Oh and I like the UU change too.

My only qualm is the modern era goals. Culture dominance doesn't seem to represent S. Korea very well, nor does launching nukes for N. Korea (Kim Jong Un is more of a wanabee nuker .) Some sort of economic goal would represent S. Korea better IMO.