Korea

[Krugi]

I'd wager that "African culture" is considered globally significant. This guy to the left of my post, for example, totally crashed the Mediterranean economy that one time. That's some significance right there!

What's more, military conquest and cultural output are not necessarily tied to each other. See also: Mongolia; see also: the Roman Empire conquering the Hellenistic world by force, only to adopt Hellenistic culture in the process. The Classical Greeks had no unified kingdom to speak of like the Egyptians, but they contributed a great deal to our modern European society.

The Hyundai/Kia Group is the world's most profitable car manufacturing enterprise. The influence of Samsung cannot be denied, either.

I think the UHV should reflect ambitions rather than historical facts, and make for diverse gameplay as well. With Korea's terrible stability map (though it's not quite Tibet's), you're forced to run a specialist economy anyway; the UHV should capitalize on that, ideally, because it's, frankly, more fun than moving triremes around.

And this is coming from a person who lived for 17 years a few hundred miles off of north korea. Yes, there was korean influence, but to say it had any more influence than like china or japan is plain ignorant

Is this really necessary?

 

[Tigranes]

And this is coming from a person who lived for 17 years a few hundred miles off of north korea. Yes, there was korean influence, but to say it had any more influence than like china or japan is plain ignorant

Was it Primorski Krai? Chinese influence must be stronger there.

Look, pal, you are not using the word "ignorant" in the right context. When people differ in opinions about the facts and in evaluations of those facts -- they say "your analysis is wrong", and not "your knowledge is insufficient". Clearly many people here know more facts about Korea than you do. In the age of google and wikipedia it is silly to brag on forums that you are less ignorant than someone else. Let's stick to evaluation of facts.

It's not about how many brands we can name. The debate is about how significant they are. Russia's Federal Budget revenues are $387 bil. (2011 г.), while just Samsung's are 247 bil. Chances are the phone in your pocket is Samsung, not some Japanese or Chinese brand. And this is just an example. I brought you another example with Madagascar. And we can go on and on. But why? For most people it is self-evident that right now Korea is globally significant, to argue otherwise does not mean that you are ignorant, it means that you do not analyze reality correctly.

But this mod is not about right now (unlike the one in my signature). This mod is about 5000 year long history of mankind. If you have to pick top 20, or top 30 civ that adequately represent the development of this planet in the past 5000 year, which civs would make in your short list?

I can argue, for example, that Khazaria had more significance than Korea in the big picture of things. But there is no point. There is no uniform and standardized approach in short listing civs right now, to begin with. Korea was added because it was easy to add them -- and why not to add them? Game is about fun, not about educational tool for classroom. I can totally understand this approach.

Author of this thread opened a poll -- what do people like the most in DoC. Results are very telling: addition of new civs wins hands down. So let's have fun, I guess. There are history books and history forums if someone got some additional interests

 

[civ_king]

Was it Primorski Krai? Chinese influence must be stronger there.

Look, pal, you are not using the word "ignorant" in the right context. When people differ in opinions about the facts and in evaluations of those facts -- they say "your analysis is wrong", and not "your knowledge is insufficient". Clearly many people here know more facts about Korea than you do. In the age of google and wikipedia it is silly to brag on forums that you are less ignorant than someone else. Let's stick to evaluation of facts.

It's not about how many brands we can name. The debate is about how significant they are. Russia's Federal Budget revenues are $387 bil. (2011 г.), while just Samsung's are 247 bil. Chances are the phone in your pocket is Samsung, not some Japanese or Chinese brand. And this is just an example. I brought you another example with Madagascar. And we can go on and on. But why? For most people it is self-evident that right now Korea is globally significant, to argue otherwise does not mean that you are ignorant, it means that you do not analyze reality correctly.

But this mod is not about right now (unlike the one in my signature). This mod is about 5000 year long history of mankind. If you have to pick top 20, or top 30 civ that adequately represent the development of this planet in the past 5000 year, which civs would make in your short list?

I can argue, for example, that Khazaria had more significance than Korea in the big picture of things. But there is no point. There is no uniform and standardized approach in short listing civs right now, to begin with. Korea was added because it was easy to add them -- and why not to add them? Game is about fun, not about educational tool for classroom. I can totally understand this approach.

Author of this thread opened a poll -- what do people like the most in DoC. Results are very telling: addition of new civs wins hands down. So let's have fun, I guess. There are history books and history forums if someone got some additional interests

Motorola, USA#1

 

[artyom]

Was it Primorski Krai? Chinese influence must be stronger there.

yes. But Korean influence is just as strong. For example, in Khabarovsk, the criminal ring leaders are vastly korean. In Holmsk and Sakhalin russians of Korean decent probably form a vast minority, and are again major crime leaders.
The Chinese influence is mostly through trade and contrary to common logic, we dont have many of them living amongst us. They havent immigrated at the proportion that the koreans have in the 20th century (they were kicked out by japan i believe into russia). The chinese come and sell their and thats all they do. If you go to school or college, your classroom will be all white and maybe 1 russian of asian decent out of 30 which is very likely to be korean/mongolian

But regardless of the strong korean presence, I am not so ignorant as to make an assumption that simply cuz of these observations one culture is dominant or more significant over the other. It does not matter whether or not I know anything about korea. You just need to have common sense to be able to conclude that coming to such an assumption that one culture>another is ignorant.
And if culture is somehow equal to how much samsung makes or any other corporation in the 20th century, then , we need to give US a cultural goal of "achieve 50000000000 cultural points by 2000".

 

[merijn_v1]

Chances are the phone in your pocket is Samsung, not some Japanese or Chinese brand.

Nokia, which is indestructable... I mean Finnish.

 

[BenZL43]

I wouldn't agree if Vietnam is in as civilization... they're no better than Khmer, whose mostly OCC or control ahistorical cities (IRL they neither control Pagan nor Hanoi, let alone Nanzhao)
I had a debate about that with Leoreth long time ago, beside the ahistorical spawn date, and the reason why Khmer is in; simply because it's in from vanilla RFC.

The situation in DoC's Southeast Asia is pretty complex now. I myself doesn't satisfied either with Indonesia, Khmer and Thai.. (I think iOSI and other players might agree).

On Korea,
their influences is more than overwhelming in Indonesia that perhaps flip 1 Indonesian city should be added to the proposed UHV too #jk
It is undoubted that Korean influence in Indonesian youngsters (especially in the urban areas) are very bold.. way more than Chinese or Japanese..
About Chinese, they're mostly hatred.. the most hatred culture in Indonesia after Israeli I think

Just walk around Jakarta or Surabaya street and I can guarantee there's so many portraits of (sickening) Korean actors/boyband like Lee Minho or Super Junior. There's even K-pop styled girlbands and boybands... like we haven't had enough already.

EDIT: Forgot to add this
Leo mention some sort of Seljuk Chinese in form of Jurchens will be added in v1.12 using Celtia slots but doesn't mentioned yet when did they spawn, perhaps if spawn earlier it could help broke China into several independents or at least subjugated it so Korea can be seen larger. Tamil needs to be more effectively attacking Srivijaya so Srivijaya wouldn't be bigger than Korea too at 960 AD. Also that in 960 AD Japan's Hokkaido still belong to Ainu so perhaps it should not be settle-able, by adding fierce barbarian or jungles.

With this situation, I think it's very possible that in 960 AD Korea is the largest Eastern Asian state in DoC

 

[ales_]

It will be good if iOnlySignIn will start a Southeast Asia thread.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Do I have to see that as an insult?

It's up to you to perceive a simple statement of truth as an insult.

Also, while you are correct that Tang China was no longer around in reality at that time, all the independent kingdoms are comparable to the size of Korea at that time. Still there were many empires and nations that were larger than Korea at that time, such as Srivijaya, Pagan Dynasty of Burma, Khmer Empire.

So you want refresher courses on grade school maths as well as geography, in addition to history? You would have to ask somebody else - I don't have the obligation or the inclination to provide them to you.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

The situation in DoC's Southeast Asia is pretty complex now. I myself doesn't satisfied either with Indonesia, Khmer and Thai.. (I think iOSI and other players might agree).

Khmer is in a presentable shape at least. Indonesia is lamentable and Thai is atrocious.

It will be good if iOnlySignIn will start a Southeast Asia thread.

But I really don't care that much about SE Asian civs in this game mainly because they're in an isolated corner of the map with little potential to influence or interact with the rest of the civs at large.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Then you should probably spend some time in some Asian-American circles.
I can't go to a boba shop or a cafe here without seeing K-Pop blasted 24/7 on the display.
Corean culture, particularly the pop culture of South Corea dominates regionally in Asia and also takes hold of Asian-Americans as well.
It's mostly only apparent between other Asians (and if you're not Asian, you'll probably first think of PSY, Red Dawn or LOST).
There's a reason why China & Japan are the primary recipients of Corean cultural export.

On Korea,
their influences is more than overwhelming in Indonesia that perhaps flip 1 Indonesian city should be added to the proposed UHV too #jk
It is undoubted that Korean influence in Indonesian youngsters (especially in the urban areas) are very bold.. way more than Chinese or Japanese..
About Chinese, they're mostly hatred.. the most hatred culture in Indonesia after Israeli I think

You waste your breath.

Speaking an Asian language and spending long periods of time in Asian communities does not make you more knowledgeable of Asian culture or history. Sitting at home calling yourself "Grand Emperor of Asia" on the internet does.

 

[Civciv5]

It's up to you to perceive a simple statement of truth as an insult.

You clearly do think very high of yourself or you must really hate me...or both...

So you want refresher courses on grade school maths as well as geography, in addition to history? You would have to ask somebody else - I don't have the obligation or the inclination to provide them to you.

It's you who is mistaken! You are just very rude right now, I didn't expect this from anyone on this forum. Both the Khmer, Srivijaya, Pagan, Nanzhao empires were as large or larger than the combined area of all the Korean states. Being the largest civ in East Asia surely doesn't fit with Korea, as they are not a conquering nation and it's also not historically inaccurate.
By the way... You know what, you aren't worth it, I will not lose my patience because you want so.

 

[UnholyMudcrab]

It seems to me like this thread has gotten just a hair off track.

 

[artyom]

what r u talking about this thread is awesome

 

[giant49er]

You say you're from California?

Then you should probably spend some time in some Asian-American circles.
I can't go to a boba shop or a cafe here without seeing K-Pop blasted 24/7 on the display.
Corean culture, particularly the pop culture of South Corea dominates regionally in Asia and also takes hold of Asian-Americans as well.
It's mostly only apparent between other Asians (and if you're not Asian, you'll probably first think of PSY, Red Dawn or LOST).
There's a reason why China & Japan are the primary recipients of Corean cultural export.

I can't help it if I live in a largely Hispanic town . But anyway, does S. Korea really dominate Japan and China culturally? Japan and China have pretty rich cultures after all. And this example of Samsung that came up here just goes to show economic power rather than cultural power. Four Asian Tigers, anyone?

 

[KievanRus]

i wanna play as taiwan

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I can't help it if I live in a largely Hispanic town . But anyway, does S. Korea really dominate Japan and China culturally? Japan and China have pretty rich cultures after all. And this example of Samsung that came up here just goes to show economic power rather than cultural power. Four Asian Tigers, anyone?

Pop-culturally, Corea dominates in most sectors.
I'm not saying that Japanese people are wearing hanbok now
or that Chinese people are now adding kimchi as a staple of their diet.

In Japan, primetime Corean dramas imported from S. Corea dominated quite a few timeslots in Japan.
NHK & BS Nihon TV (the two that come to mind the best) aired many Corean dramas and NHK in particular has helped co-produce one.
These were mostly catered to the adult female crowd but their popularity has been seen in many other demographics as well.
Many new K-Pop groups actually make their debuts in Japan now as well and do special Japanese-language only performances and music videos as well;
quite a few of these groups and their followings are definitely growing.

In China, the market is huge and the target of expansion by many Corean media conglomerates.
A China-specific strategy that they employ is to train Chinese or Chinese-speaking stars and have them spearhead the entry into China.
Han Geng (of Super Junior) & Zhang Yi Lin are probably some of the best examples.
I watch both some mainland and Taiwanese shows on the weekends and Corean music is played during shows or (Girls' Generation is ubiquitous) as flash cues for show segments.
As video game consoles are illegal in the PRC (not anymore actually, after a recent review in the law), Corean MMOs have seized a large share in the Chinese market as well.

It isn't just that, part of what is so attractive about Corean pop culture to the youth Asian generation today is that Coreans make a conscious effort to appeal to each of the regions.
Corean singers & actors are mostly multilingual and can sing or converse in Mandarin or Japanese as well.

This trickles into America as well.
Corean Americans nowadays lead the Asian American demographic in a variety of areas;
it's not to say that Vietnamese, Chinese or Japanese Americans still don't contribute, it's just that the visibility has changed.
Most of the more visible Asian Americans in the media nowadays as opposed to being Chinese or Japanese are Corean.

I hope that was informative.

EDIT: Even the plastic surgery boom is affecting Japan & China.
Many people are being directly influenced into getting procedures done
because they want to look like Corean stars (particularly Hyori Lee;
many women speak of getting their butts cut to look like hers.)
Yes, I realize this isn't exactly a positive thing; but I'm just showing the extent of the pop culture reach.

 

[artyom]

pop culture is rly not the center of everything. If I was asked to label in order most popular/culturally influencial countries, I wouldnt place corea even in the top like 30. To even compare corea with japan is silly. i'd think japanese cuisine alone makes it more popular than anything corea has combined.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

You clearly do think very high of yourself or you must really hate me...or both...

It's you who is mistaken! You are just very rude right now, I didn't expect this from anyone on this forum. Both the Khmer, Srivijaya, Pagan, Nanzhao empires were as large or larger than the combined area of all the Korean states. Being the largest civ in East Asia surely doesn't fit with Korea, as they are not a conquering nation and it's also not historically inaccurate.
By the way... You know what, you aren't worth it, I will not lose my patience because you want so.

Look, I can see both of your viewpoints.
Both of you are correct, but in different contexts.
Civciv5, you are in fact correct in your assertion, but from an IRL standpoint.
So I don't disagree with you there.
iOnlySignIn is basing his position in the context of the game.
Remember that China proper is actually really small in DoC's map,
so by in-game standards, and considering that those Chinese kingdoms
were fragmented and not part of one polity, that would classify as Independents,
and Independents being considered separate from one another, would mean
that Corea would be the largest active civ (in game terms) during that era.

 

[Tigranes]

I hope that was informative.

Extremely informative and interesting, do you have any Asian roots yourself ? Do you deliberately spell Korea with C, to allude to historical roots? You guys have to try RFC Classical World -- we have proto-Korean and Korean civs there and more tiles for cities! Guess what's Goguryeo UP ?

Interestingly, even in Russia the most iconic rock-singer (some call him prophet) of all time was ethnic Korean:


Link to video.

 

[DC123456789]

Extremely informative and interesting, do you have any Asian roots yourself ? Do you deliberately spell Korea with C, to allude to historical roots? You guys have to try RFC Classical World -- we have proto-Korean and Korean civs there and more tiles for cities! Guess what's Goguryeo UP ?

Interestingly, even in Russia the most iconic rock-singer (some call him prophet) of all time was ethnic Korean:


Link to video.

I believe Tomorrow's Dawn said he was Chinese. For Corea, start here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11359111#post11359111. You'll see quite a debate below.