Kosovo and Crimea

[Winner]

I agree that the manner in which Miloševič was stopped was excessive and wrong, and that innocent Serbs lost their lives needlessly. The air campaign should have been limited to military targets in Kosovo only. IIRC the Czech and Greek governments jointly called for stopping the bombing campaign because they believed them to be morally unacceptable.

But the fact stands that it was Miloševič and his regime — with all their history of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia — who triggered the crisis by their heavy handed response to the Albanian insurgency. NATO was forced to act.

Here, on the other hand, we have a new government which has committed no crimes against Russians or others in Crimea, a government that was not given any chance to negotiate on the future of the autonomous region. The Russian pretext for the invasion, i.e. to protect the local Russians, is absolutely false, a totally transparent excuse for an invasion of a piece of real-estate the Russian regime deems strategically crucial.

So again, pointing to Kosovo and excusing Russia on the basis of a fallacious analogy is disingenuous.

 

[Kyriakos]

I agree that the manner in which Miloševič was stopped was excessive and wrong, and that innocent Serbs lost their lives needlessly. The air campaign should have been limited to military targets in Kosovo only. IIRC the Czech and Greek governments jointly called for stopping the bombing campaign because they believed them to be morally unacceptable.

But the fact stands that it was Miloševič and his regime — with all their history of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia — who triggered the crisis by their heavy handed response to the Albanian insurgency. NATO was forced to act.

Here, on the other hand, we have a new government which has committed no crimes against Russians or others in Crimea, a government that was not given any chance to negotiate on the future of the autonomous region. The Russian pretext for the invasion, i.e. to protect the local Russians, is absolutely false, a totally transparent excuse for an invasion of a piece of real-estate the Russian regime deems strategically crucial.

So again, pointing to Kosovo and excusing Russia on the basis of a fallacious analogy is disingenuous.

A note: The Greek government had nothing to do with it, (i suspect, but don't know, and may be very wrong here, also the Czech government did not really press to avoid the bombing), and they signed for the bombing, like all others. The Greek public definitely was more than 95% against the bombing of Serbia.

Putin is not a US president, and Russia is not a Nato leader, so it makes a lot of sense that they would not try to follow the same (equally corrupt, just different) route so as to have what they wanted. Kosovo is a protectorate of Nato. Crimea is already controlled by a Russian army. The events won't develop in the same way either.

You can demonise Milosevic, but keep in mind that Kosovo was a province of Serbia. It was not Albanian. The war of the break-up of Yugoslavia had many villains, and not just Milosevic. Tudman (Croatia) and even Bosnian leaders did their own war-crimes. So did Albanians in Kosovo, and still do.

I don't see how a months-long bombing campaign against most of the infrastructure of a country, killing hundreds as well, is anywhere near the scale of a (apparently) bloodless (?) move by the Russian army in the Crimea, so as to secure its own position as having the strongest hand now in what will go on.
Of course both events are pitiful. But our world has become this by now, and the US/Nato played a huge role to it getting to this point.

 

[Winner]

A note: The Greek government had nothing to do with it, (i suspect, but don't know, and may be very wrong here, also the Czech government did not really press to avoid the bombing), and they signed for the bombing, like all others. The Greek public definitely was more than 95% against the bombing of Serbia.

As far as I remember, the Czech gov. was the last to approve the intervention (by an one-vote margin, no less). Later on, it issues a joint declaration with the Greek gov. offering some sort of a way out of the conflict. I don't remember the details, it was called Czech-Greek peace initiative or something like that.

You can demonise Milosevic, but keep in mind that Kosovo was a province of Serbia. It was not Albanian. The war of the break-up of Yugoslavia had many villains, and not just Milosevic. Tudman (Croatia) and even Bosnian leaders did their own war-crimes. So did Albanians in Kosovo, and still do.

I am not saying Miloševič was the source of all evil, hidden in his lair in Belgrade wielding the One Ring or something. I am saying that with such a history of genocide, the West had every reason to believe that if nothing was done, Kosovo would be completely ethnically cleansed on its Albanian inhabitants with terrible loss of life. That's the point I was making.

In Crimea, there was no such reason for an intervention, only trumped up accusations and fearmongering by the Russian regime.

I don't see how a months-long bombing campaign against most of the infrastructure of a country, killing hundreds as well, is anywhere near the scale of a (apparently) bloodless (?) move by the Russian army in the Crimea, so as to secure its own position as having the strongest hand now in what will go on.

I am not debating consequences, stop dragging those in. The German occupation of Sudetenland in 1938 and the rest of Bohemia-Moravia in 1939 were relatively bloodless affairs as well; that doesn't mean those actions were right or justified!

 

[red_elk]

The difference is that Kosovo is part of Serbian heartland, whereas Crimea is much more Russian than it has ever been Ukrainian.

 

[Tahuti]

The right solution was to pacify Kosovo and wait until Serbia was sufficiently democratic for it to be able to manage Kosovo as an autonomous region again.

When Kosovo declared independence, Serbia was already sufficiently democratised. The problem was that UNMIK - while created out of international treaties - was breaching international treaties itself by keeping Serbian security forces out which had a right to be present in Kosovo.

 

[Evie]

The difference is that Kosovo is part of Serbian heartland, whereas Crimea is much more Russian than it has ever been Ukrainian.

The difference is that those words are empty, meaningless pretext used by corrupt men to try and justify some alleged right to lord over people who don't want to be lorded over by them.

 

[red_elk]

The difference is that those words are empty, meaningless pretext used by corrupt men to try and justify some alleged right to lord over people who don't want to be lorded over by them.

It doesn't matter what you think these words are. It matters what these words mean to people living in Serbia, Kosovo, Ukraine and Russia. This is what makes the difference de-facto, though de-jure "heartland" means nothing.

 

[Srdjan]

Two things:

1) I continue to think that separating Kosovo from Serbia de iure was an imbecilic and utterly hypocritical decision that will haunt us (the West) for decades. Especially since the local Serbs are now basically being treated the same as Albanians were treated under Miloševič, but all of a sudden we maintain that they can't separate and rejoin Serbia.

The right solution was to pacify Kosovo and wait until Serbia was sufficiently democratic for it to be able to manage Kosovo as an autonomous region again.

2) That being said, Miloševič and his regime have committed war crimes in Kosovo (along with the KLA) and some intervention was necessary. In Crimea, nobody has even attempted any violence or repression against local Russians. The region was pretty calm and orderly; the case for the Russian invasion is NON-EXISTENT, it's an overt and premeditated power-grab by Putin. There is no analogy between the Russian invasion of Crimea and NATO intervention in Kosovo, none whatsoever.

First of all. NATO "intervention" against Serbia has began at least a year before the war crimes has been done. Yugoslav navy has reported in 96/97 that NATO ships has in several occasions electronically tracked and tried to jam Yugoslav ships and planes.
At the beginning of 97., American ambassador in Belgrade has said that Yugoslav army and police will have to leave Kosovo, and that question of Kosovo is matter of American national interests. After that Madeleine Albright has come in Belgrade and meet Milosevic. You can guess what was her demands. After that KLA attacks against police has literally explodes. Road ambushes and civilian abductions was on daily base.
At that point Yugoslav army has intervened for the first time because major roads was cut and police was attacked with heavy weapons. Of Course, NATO condemned Yugoslav army actions and threatened that will intervene.

Case with OEBS mission and William Wallker is another (sad) story of NATO hypocrisy.

 

[classical_hero]

Two things:

1) I continue to think that separating Kosovo from Serbia de iure was an imbecilic and utterly hypocritical decision that will haunt us (the West) for decades. Especially since the local Serbs are now basically being treated the same as Albanians were treated under Miloševič, but all of a sudden we maintain that they can't separate and rejoin Serbia.

The right solution was to pacify Kosovo and wait until Serbia was sufficiently democratic for it to be able to manage Kosovo as an autonomous region again.

2) That being said, Miloševič and his regime have committed war crimes in Kosovo (along with the KLA) and some intervention was necessary. In Crimea, nobody has even attempted any violence or repression against local Russians. The region was pretty calm and orderly; the case for the Russian invasion is NON-EXISTENT, it's an overt and premeditated power-grab by Putin. There is no analogy between the Russian invasion of Crimea and NATO intervention in Kosovo, none whatsoever.

Russia had no legitimate reason to do this except to push Ukraine around and test the world. So far Russia has won this round and we will see what the west does.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Careful CH, cause Spiders might be allied to Russia

 

[Evie]

It doesn't matter what you think these words are. It matters what these words mean to people living in Serbia, Kosovo, Ukraine and Russia. This is what makes the difference de-facto, though de-jure "heartland" means nothing.

Why should I give a flying rat's rear end what they think?

People think all sort of crazy stupid things. People out there think tthat other races/etchnic groups/cultures are inferior and use that to justify insane things they do. People out there think the world was created in six days (and one day of rest), and act on the basis of that.

I have no obligation to respect the crazy notions people use to justify their actions. If they take actions on the basis of crazy notions, then we should treat them as insane madmen, not as people worthy of respect.

Nationalist "Our heartland which we have a right to regardless of who lives there now" is one of the worst source of conflicts of the past hundred years and more. It helped fuel the rise of wars and dictatorships left and right. Of all the political notions I know, it is the one least worthy of respect.

Anyone who believe their country has a right to a piece of real estate against the will of people who live there have earned all the scorn the world can give them. They are warmongering monsters, and nothing more.

 

[Farm Boy]

Anyone who believe their country has a right to a piece of real estate against the will of people who live there have earned all the scorn the world can give them. They are warmongering monsters, and nothing more.

Unfortunately, those sorts of people tend not to react to scorn. It tends to take bullets, in one form or another.

 

[Evie]

Bullets or other more forceful methods, yes.

But scorn isn't about making them change their mind here. It's about calling things as they are.

Even if we lack the ability to stop something that is deserving of scorn, that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to condemn it. Powerless condemnation may feel useless, but it's still a far sight better than silent complicity.

 

[IglooDame]

Crimea gives me much more of a "Sudetenland" vibe, than anything to do with Kossovo. *shudder*

 

[red_elk]

I have no obligation to respect the crazy notions people use to justify their actions. If they take actions on the basis of crazy notions, then we should treat them as insane madmen, not as people worthy of respect.

Should other people respect your notions if they find them crazy? Or they can treat you as insane madman?

 

[Akka]

As a rule, I don't support breaking countries apart just because a part of them has people who want to leave - unless it's a recently annexed country trying to get its independance back, or if the country's government itself is trying to kill the people in the first place.

Kosovo seems to fall into the second case, Ukraine didn't.

 

[Kyriakos]

As a rule, I don't support breaking countries apart just because a part of them has people who want to leave - unless it's a recently annexed country trying to get its independance back, or if the country's government itself is trying to kill the people in the first place.

Kosovo seems to fall into the second case, Ukraine didn't.

No it doesn't.

Unless you mean current Kosovo, whose PM is accused of War Crimes ( ) and refuses to allow the northern part of it which has nearly 100% Serbs, to leave that drug state.

 

[Evie]

Should other people respect your notions if they find them crazy? Or they can treat you as insane madman?

I'm not invading a foreign country or repressign a people who want independence over those notions. I'm not embracing a mentality that has led to two world wars in the past century and millions of death.

I'd say I don't care what they think because history will prove me right, but that't not true. I don't care what they think of me. History already proves me right.

What they think is, for all practial purposes, the fascist mentality.

 

[red_elk]

I'm not invading a foreign country or repressign a people who want independence over those notions. I'm not embracing a mentality that has led to two world wars in the past century and millions of death.

Surely you are not. You are merely suggesting to use bullets or other forceful methods against people whose notions you dislike.

 

[Kyriakos]

Surely you are not. You are merely suggesting to use bullets or other forceful methods against people whose notions you dislike.

According to Oda's view, something is only linear if it is going to the right.

Linear and to the left is not linear.



Maybe it is time to be (if anything) anti-linear, and not anti the specific direction of the arrow that you'll get yourself impaled with.