Largest catalan independentist demonstration ever!

[Dachs]

Which is why there is strong anti Canberra sentiment in WA, due to that very reason, since they are using us to make up for the short fall over east.

All rich people should secede from states where their income is redistributed to poor people

clearly

 

[Karalysia]

I hope Spain pulls a Tienanmen Square and runs the protesters over with tanks.

 

[classical_hero]

All rich people should secede from states where their income is redistributed to poor people

clearly

The problem is that in our constitution that the minerals are the states responsibilities, otherwise at the start of federation there would not have been WA in the Commonwealth of Australia.

 

[useless]

Have you read George Orwells "Homage to Catalonia"? The Catalans have a different mentality to the rest of the Spanish, they are a more developed people and love liberty, like us.

The spanish are obviously freedom hating barbarians. Are you being serious?

 

[Winner]

Won't they ever get tired of this nonsense?

 

[Luckymoose]

Eww go ahead and ruin all the maps why don't you.

 

[gangleri2001]

You can't claim this is all an independence demonstration. It's a protest over an unfavourable constitutional court ruling on the autonomy statute. There's no way to know how many people in the demonstration are pro-independence, and I'd assume the demonstration covers the full spectrum of Catalanist opinion, not just the independence wing.

Then you tell me how come the flag we saw the most was the estelada and the word most used was "independència" both in slogans and banners. Sure there's no way to say how many independentists were there, but all I can say is that, given all the clearly independentist simbology we saw yesterday, the independentist were the majority BY FAR. Even the spanish papers acknowledge that that demonstration soon became an independentist rally.

Um, excuse me? That's the message you took from Orwell's book? (In which he spent half his time in Aragon?)

I haven't read that book and people told me that it's more about war than anything else. Anyway, I just want to point out that those fighting in the aragonese front were the catalans, that's why (I suppose) he titled that book homage to Catalonia instead of Aragon.

 

[dutchfire]

You just want to become independent of Spain so you won't lose the WC final tonight.

 

[gangleri2001]

Looks like someone needs to read the OP.

 

[Snorrius]

Won't they ever get tired of this nonsense?

It seems you are atrociously undemocratic. How can you call this noble fighting for creating yet another unique independent country as "nonsense"? Every city, town and village should be independent state and have a lord just like in good old Middle Ages!!!

 

[Bugfatty300]

Leave Catalan alone! Leave it alone!

 

[kulade]

Nationalism is sooo 18th century.

 

[PiMan]

It seems you are atrociously undemocratic. How can you call this noble fighting for creating yet another unique independent country as "nonsense"? Every city, town and village should be independent state and have a lord just like in good old Middle Ages!!!

Don't worry, they won't be fully independent. They will be a part of the EU for many years to come.

 

[Winner]

It seems you are atrociously undemocratic. How can you call this noble fighting for creating yet another unique independent country as "nonsense"? Every city, town and village should be independent state and have a lord just like in good old Middle Ages!!!

That's not democracy - that's feudalism. If you don't know the difference, here's the best explanation I've ever read (maybe it was here on CFC, I don't remember):

In democracy, it's your vote that counts. In feudalism, it's your count that votes

Seriously, it's nonsense. There is no need for them to be independent. Those who blindly call for independence are just fooling themselves - it won't solve their existing problems, it will just create new ones. Not to mention the whole process of separation is extremely difficult and risky.

Plus, there's no need to balkanize Europe any further; we've had enough of it in the 1990s.

(BTW, I see your signature doomsday checklist still hasn't changed, how come? )

 

[Traitorfish]

Nationalism is sooo 18th century.

It's really more of a nineteenth century thing. France was the only country to have a strong nationalist movement before 1800, and it only emerged at the very end. It's also hard to say when the movement died out; it certainly continued in Eastern and South-Eastern Europe well into the 20th century.

Don't worry, they won't be fully independent. They will be a part of the EU for many years to come.

That's true enough- most secessionist groups favour European integration, often seeing themselves as states within a federal EU rather than fully independent nations. Their main concern is often independence from the traditional "parent state".

 

[gangleri2001]

Seriously, it's nonsense. There is no need for them to be independent.

There's no need to be independent? So I think that you may answer these following questions:

1) How come we have had an anual deficit of 15.000 milions of € (inflation corrected and adapted to the change of currency) for the last 30 years?

2) How come the statute of autonomy got cut out TWO TIMES even though there was a popular referendum that approved it while other reformed statutes (such as the andalusian) were not cut out event though they had the exact same articles?

3) Why does the spanish government doesn't obey its own laws and publish the balance sheets of the state so we know who pays what?

4) Why did some sectors of the spanish society try to boycott the catalan economy 5 years ago just because catalans were trying to reform their statute?

5) Why the population who need wider social policies (specially the unemployed, the old people and young peple) has been skyrocketing for the last 10 years in Catalonia and any attempt of the catalan govenment to find new funds for social policies gets automatically blocked by the spanish government?

6) Why should catalans accept a sentence against their statute if they have approved the statute in referendum and the sentenced the statute in illegal circumstances (its members should have been changed months ago according to the law) and some of its members were also members of the former fascist government?

7) In the same line, why does the spanish constitution has articles who were imposed by francoists blackmailing the whole population (the army would have declared war if the article 8 and the "indissolubility of the spanish nation" wouldn't have been included) and how come nobody in super-duper democratic europe wants to acknowledge that the spanish constitution has articles that were literally wrote down and imposed by fascists?

8) Why do the aforementioned articles of the spanish constitution try to avoid any change of the status quo in the Basque country, Galicia and Catalonia by making the self-determination right (a right recognized by the UN Charter) illegal?

9) Why does the Instituto Cervantes (spanish official organization for the promotion of spanish culture outside Spain) does not invest a cent in catalan, basque and galician cultures even though they are forced by law to do so? How come the spanish film and music industries boycott and film or song that has been filmed/dubbed or is sung in Catalan, Basque or Galician?

10) And last question, why shouldn't our will be enough to become independent?

And that's all. I could ask many other questions but first of all I want you to answer me these 10.

Those who blindly call for independence are just fooling themselves - it won't solve their existing problems, it will just create new ones.

O RLY? I think that independence would solve all the problems above immediately.

Not to mention the whole process of separation is extremely difficult and risky.

The only risk here is the spanish army and given the current international situation of Spain (EU and NATO) it won't do anything if it's done legaly.

Plus, there's no need to balkanize Europe any further; we've had enough of it in the 1990s.

That happened in EASTERN europe only. In western europe some nations have to belong to states other than their own just because these states were empires long ago and have developed and extremely repulsive, paternalistic and post-imperialistic (and in Spain, parasitary too) attitude towards these other nations.

 

[Snorrius]

O RLY? I think that independence would solve all the problems above immediately.

A lot of people of former Soviet Union had the same idea. For example Ukrainians were saying at the time that their republic is the most rich, and it will become the second France as soon as it will be independent. But as we have seen after 20 years Ukraine is just the failed state now.

Or take countries of Yugoslavia. It was decent state back then, now it is bunch of weak countries with no purpose to exist.

Or take Baltics. The illusion of freedom lured them into EU. During the reforms they have lost almost everything USSR have given to them (Ignalina NPP is a recent example) but what they've got in reality is very different to what they expected. And ironically they have just changed place, they had not got real independance. They do what Brussel tell them and live off EU's mercy.

Well, at the other side "independent" Catalonia inside EU may have not make drastic difference. You will get you anthem, emblem and flag, everyone will be happy and no kittens will be harmed.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Wow who knew there were so many people that would want something as ******** as the independence of catalunia.

You can't claim this is all an independence demonstration. It's a protest over an unfavourable constitutional court ruling on the autonomy statute. There's no way to know how many people in the demonstration are pro-independence, and I'd assume the demonstration covers the full spectrum of Catalanist opinion, not just the independence wing.

Oh that's better. My opinion of spain is somewhat restored.

I hope Spain pulls a Tienanmen Square and runs the protesters over with tanks.

This is probably the only intresting thing that could happen about this movement.

 

[useless]

Someone explain why Cataluna even deserves independence compared to the various tribes of North America, Chechnya, Northern Ireland etc?

 

[innonimatu]

I'm all for dismantling Spain. But it's not going to be easy!

7) In the same line, why does the spanish constitution has articles who were imposed by francoists blackmailing the whole population (the army would have declared war if the article 8 and the "indissolubility of the spanish nation" wouldn't have been included) and how come nobody in super-duper democratic europe wants to acknowledge that the spanish constitution has articles that were literally wrote down and imposed by fascists?

If by "europe" you mean the European Union, it's whole purpose, for the national governments, is to strengthen their "legitimacy". Spanish politicians had Spain hastily join the EU because: 1) they still feared the military, and the EU made military coups unthinkable; 2) it weakened the national drives for independence through the threat of making any independentist region be "blockaded" out of the EU should they become independent (the french also having a potential problem with the basques, and other EU countries with other groups, this is pretty much guaranteed).

8) Why do the aforementioned articles of the spanish constitution try to avoid any change of the status quo in the Basque country, Galicia and Catalonia by making the self-determination right (a right recognized by the UN Charter) illegal?

"Self-determination" rights, as all the rest of the UN, are used by the world empires when convenient, and ignored when not convenient. Go ask the americans about afghan self-determination...

You want just an independent Catalonia? First Spain would have to be freed from the fetters of the EU - I only see it happening with a general collapse of the EU. Then the pro-independence catalans would have to forge alliances with enemies of Spain within the new european scenario. Geography means that the only possible and useful one is France, and as I mentioned above, the french really don't have any interest in sponsoring nationalism around their own borders now. Perhaps Morocco might make a useful ally - in a century or so!

Or the catalans could try to get several of the other nationalities within Spain to dissolve the state, such that the government in Madrid ended up without the means to enforce its power. This at least has a very small possibility of happening. But only with phenomenally stupid people governing in Madrid. Do you see any spanish Gorbachev?