RickFGS
Deity
I´m not going further on the matter, but Brazil (part of portuguese empire then) alone produced 2/3 of the world´s gold at 1700´s, so you figure how much we had by yourself, and keep calling us a "poor backwater country" if you want.
Largest economy in the world in history?
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RickFGS
Deity
I did not knew this, this is interesting, could you give me some links/books on this matter (Baltic states part)?
LightSpectra
me autem minui
There is no denial that Portugal was a global power in the 1700s. But your claim is that Portugal could buy Nazi Germany's war machine "ten times over"; by 1940, Portugal was indeed the equivalent of a poor backwater country, despite its economic growth at the time.
sydhe
King of Kongs
For the later fourth and most of the fifth century, I'd give the edge to the Gupta Empire of India. China was divided most of the time between 220 and 589 AD. The Guptas never ruled Southern india, but had a large prosperous empire that ruled the Ganges and Indus valleys.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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Check the standard work on portuguese coinage, Alberto Gomes' catalog, it mentions some of that history. And the german wikipedia actually has a nice web page.
I have yet to get one of those
And where did you dig up those over-inflated claims about Portugal anyway? The one about buying the german military warmachine ten times over is so outrageous that I'm really curious to know who' seeding that!
Incidentally, and to put a little actual history into the topic, the 16th century portuguese kingdom certainly was a big buyer of "german war machines", or at least a major recruiter of german mercenaries: most gunners on the portuguese ships sent to India were hired in the flemish cities. Some of that gold flowed as payment for those services. That was how a small kingdom managed to stick its nose into three other continents at the same time, otherwise it would lack even the soldiers to do it. I also favour the theory that the quick fall of several outposts to the Dutch after the iberian union was a consequence of the closing of that mercenary market. The damn spanish got everyone busy in their stupid wars with just about every other european state.
Of course, the king did try his best to keep all those soldiers sent to Asia stuck in there, so as not to have to pay on the return... Manuel I was an even greedier bastard that John II.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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Well, you never did repay those "loans" from the greek central bank, did you? I don't see the greeks as signatories of that treaty. Nor, for that matter, a number of other pillaged countries.
RickFGS
Deity
Check the standard work on portuguese coinage, Alberto Gomes' catalog, it mentions some of that history. And the german wikipedia actually has a nice web page.
I have yet to get one of those
And where did you dig up those over-inflated claims about Portugal anyway? The one about buying the german military warmachine ten times over is so outrageous that I'm really curious to know who' seeding that!
Incidentally, and to put a little actual history into the topic, the 16th century portuguese kingdom certainly was a big buyer of "german war machines", or at least a major recruiter of german mercenaries: most gunners on the portuguese ships sent to India were hired in the flemish cities. Some of that gold flowed as payment for those services. That was how a small kingdom managed to stick its nose into three other continents at the same time, otherwise it would lack even the soldiers to do it. I also favour the theory that the quick fall of several outposts to the Dutch after the iberian union was a consequence of the closing of that mercenary market. The damn spanish got everyone busy in their stupid wars with just about every other european state.
Of course, the king did try his best to keep all those soldiers sent to Asia stuck in there, so as not to have to pay on the return... Manuel I was an even greedier bastard that John II.
Manuel I is from a different blood line, you see...the Afonso Henriques line was D.João I line, which made Portugal great, this line was broken with the death of D.Sebastião young king in north africa battle of Alcácer-Qibir versus the moors.
There are some confidential historian documents that link spanish gold and mercenaries beeing present in the battlefield fighting alongside moorish troops, so in fact, there was a betrayel, and a clever schem from Filipe II of Spain to conquer Portugal via marriage to a portuguese princess and killing the young heir.
Portugal only recover independence 60 years later, in those 60 years we lost control of our fortresses because we were under spanish rule, it was a great struggle for our overseas colonies and outposts to hold against dutch, english, french and german pirates and expeditions all alone without the support of the metropolis.
Howhever it has little to due to the lack of mercenaries, in truth, the flemish state was only possible to exist because Portugal pratically placed the Antwerp port on the map, before our fortress and trading outpost there, the place was no more than a fisherman´s trading post trying to survive several constant norsemen raids.
As for the mercenaries used by Portugal, we essential depended on our superior tech ships, speed and much better firearms and cannons than any other country at the date had, historians agree that the portuguese cannons could put up a firestorm of shells from 3 to 10 times higher/faster than any counterpart at the time.
Some historians say we used welsh bowmen in continetal troops and moor scouts in naval expeditions, but there is no mention of fleemish mercenaries having a great role in any of our campaigns. The conquest of India, Malaca, Singapore, Macau, Ormuz, Mozambique, Madagáscar, South Africa, Angola and so on was usely done by companies of 1,000 to 3,000 men in junction with 10 or more large port ships. So you see, fewer numbers, but same great results.
The portuguese cannons as far as 1450´s already had a semi-automatic reloading mechanism (the gun was not loaded in the mouth, instead several spare "backparts" with the cannon round previous insert were ready to be loaded and as soon as a shell was fired, the backpart of the cannon was replaced with a new "backpart", reducing the reloading time up to 10 shells per minute, unmatched to the dat and for the next centurys to come), that only came to general use in the 1800´s, Nau´s also used the "line of water rapid firing", hitting enemy vessels at brickwater point, and a fully equipped portuguese company of "Marines" used special landing crafts and arm held cannons or "pederneiras" along fighting techniques much different from the classical heavy armor charge of european nations.
A german history, that lived in Portugal, also wrote a book, stating that portuguese naval warfare tactics and system of fighting was copy´d by every major european nation and that even US marines nowadays are teached tactics similar to those used in the 1500´s.
As for the king not paying the return, D.João II payed all of the expeditions in advance, sailors and soldiers then received bits of land and heraditary titles for further services to the kingdom, depending on their sucess or not in overseas campaigns, there was also room for personal profit between all the trading going on, and many climbed socially, but the important aspect here, is that families of those living for several years for places noone ever heard off, were not left in misery, they received a large compensation and were taken care off by the crown and cleargly of the time, you see, since Afonso Henriques regilious reforms, the portuguese cleargly was more than wealthy and independent, it also provided the population with basic living standards and sometimes craftmanship and schoolarship. This all changed with the death of the young king or "Avis" bloodline in north africa.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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You know, I am Portuguese and I can easily detect several mistakes there. For example, regarding Flanders: do you happen to know where the crusaders who helped the first portuguese king conquer Lisbon came from? Hint: some of them came from Flanders...
To stick just with the gunners issue: the consensus is that most gunners (though not the other soldiers) were northern european mercenaries. I don't have my books with me now, but there is ample documented evidence of that, I can dig it up later. Portugal also had to import cooper from Sweden, via Flanders, for its canon foundries (and for trade in India). Not to mention timber for masts from Sweden, tin from England , and lots of other steel weapons from Germany and Spain, the local production being usually insufficient.
We did had better shipbuilders for a time (at least I think we never did a Vasa!), but that was about it.
Now, are you going to post actual sources for those claims?
To stick just with the gunners issue: the consensus is that most gunners (though not the other soldiers) were northern european mercenaries. I don't have my books with me now, but there is ample documented evidence of that, I can dig it up later. Portugal also had to import cooper from Sweden, via Flanders, for its canon foundries (and for trade in India). Not to mention timber for masts from Sweden, tin from England , and lots of other steel weapons from Germany and Spain, the local production being usually insufficient.
We did had better shipbuilders for a time (at least I think we never did a Vasa!), but that was about it.
Now, are you going to post actual sources for those claims?
RickFGS
Deity
I´m glad you are portuguese, but IIRC it´s mor elike this:
- i will also give you a hint, the crusaders were the expatriated Templars, some of the richer, if not the richest in europe at the time, and they helped Afonso Henriques, and later continued to help his bloodline;
- Flanders only came to importance AFTER we established a permanent and SAFE fortress outpost there, allowing northern europe to receive trading from the Med, something they didn´t had before (don´t forget we controlled the Gibraltar straight at Ceuta);
- most gunners did not come from northern europe, that is false northern europe claim, they were conscripted from the masses, our ships were built to provided two castles, due to the lack of manpower, our tactics were based in speed, long range fighting ang and rapid incursions, not in gunner close combats, most sailors were gunners and everything else for that matters, professional soldiers only came along when expeditions were ordered or a specific target, either conquering a fortified stronghold or establishing a fort in strategic locations;
- timber for boats came from the vast forests of Madeira island and Serra de Caldeirão shiped by Odemira and Sado rivers, for their particular wood traits, beeing more flexible and floating than others.
- cooper came from England and Ireland as well as tin (this you are correct), not Sweden;
- the local production of steel was not inneficient, and did not came from Germany or Spain, in fact, there was import of steel from baltic states and Sweden, and Russia as well, but the guns were made in portuguese foundries since D.João I and II did not want to leek the secret of portuguese reloading tech, as well as other firing techiniques;
- from Spain there was hardly anything coming at the time for that matter;
- there was import of fabrics for sails yes, but from north africa, beeing the arabic the best of the world at the time.
- also, don´t forget we were no tiny kingdom, England at the time (1500) had a population of 1.8 Million people, while Portugal counted some 1.4 Million, the difference was not that great, unfortanely our natural tendency to regard ourselves as a tiny kingdom roams over the years of misseducation.
I will try to digitalize my books sources and pages and send it to you, or publish them here.
Some of them are:
-> O Dia de Aljubarrota de Luís Rosa
-> Portugal pioneiro da globalização de Jorge Nascimento Rodrigues
-> 1509: A Batalha que mudou o domínio do comércio global de Tessaleno Devezas
-> Homens, Espadas e Tomates" de Rainer Daehnhardt
-> Grandes Batalhas Navais Portuguesas, Colecção "História Divulgativa"
-> A Expansão Marítima Portuguesa 1400-1800, Francisco Bethencourt
and many others
Enjoy! I sure have!
Of course i can be wrong, and if so, i´m also open to read other books and sources to refut my ideias. And of course, i apologize if i seem arrogant writing sometimes, i~have a weak spot for history, specially national history, since i also believe that portuguese history is missjudged and missquoted in the world, and i´v seen a lot of lies and rewriting of events to favour anglosaxon and richer european countries going on in the past decades.
Verbose
Deity
Except of course, at the time England was a tiny, peripheral kingdom. Portugal was less so, but 1.4 million in 1500 did not a large country make.
France stood at at least 15 million. Spain at 8 million or so. Hungary had about 4 million. Russia 6 million, and Poland something similar. The Ottoman Empire would have been about 10 million.
aelf
Ashen One
Apparently having once been rich makes you rich forever. In that case, China is definitely the richest ever. It used to be the richest, and it's still pretty much intact.
Since we have very little idea of the population of the Empire at the time it would be foolish to make a GDP estimate. But for information on the economic situation - our best guesses as to How It All Worked - I'd recommend the collection of essays edited by Paul Magdalino on Byzantium around the year 1000 and Jean-Claude Cheynet's work on the Anatolian aristocracy. Katherine Holmes on Basileios II and the Governance of the Byzantine Empire may also be useful.
Ergo Sum
Prince
1. "brainwashing books and documentaries" = any historical source that isn't nationalist Portuguese crap. Lol
2. Amount of gold really doesn't say much about the per capita productivity of a society. At most Spanish gold meant they could (theoretically) buy more of the goods of their neighbors. Gold, unlike agricultural yields, textiles, oil, has an exchange value but very little use value. Ceteris paribus, there is no significant per capita increase without technological innovation (read: the Industrial Revolution)
2. Amount of gold really doesn't say much about the per capita productivity of a society. At most Spanish gold meant they could (theoretically) buy more of the goods of their neighbors. Gold, unlike agricultural yields, textiles, oil, has an exchange value but very little use value. Ceteris paribus, there is no significant per capita increase without technological innovation (read: the Industrial Revolution)
RickFGS
Deity
"The conquest of India"
Yes, we conquered India, all the major cities and industrial ports were under our rule, the indian sultan could not even order coinage to be minted before the portuguese viceroy gave his permit, from whom do you think England STOLED it three centuries later.
It´s incredible how an Aussie doens´t even know were the british empire comes from.
Hint: Better start reading books, they look better inside your head than in the bookshelfs or as table supports.
Moderator Action: Infracted for trolling again.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
RickFGS
Deity
The only crap here is the so called german empire: A - it was never an empire, since it never influeced anyone outside its borders, and B - it was never german, since it was Holy Roman before, Prussian after and when it was in fact german, it lasted 6 years of pure murderess madness, so no thank you germans, stay indoors please.
LightSpectra
me autem minui
Firstly, it's sorrowful that you describe the transfer of the political control over India as "stoled" (sic). I'm sorry you value Portuguese national pride over that of human beings.
Secondly, "all the major cities and industrial ports" is... a bit of a stretch. Portugal did get quite a financial benefit out of their Indian claims, but that did not amount to the entire place of India.
So, Portugal still doesn't have a printing press?
What... "pure murderess madness"? What?
Your argument for the Heiliges Römisches Reich der Deutscher Nation being not-German because it was "Holy Roman" before (what?) and "Prussian after" (Prussia never ruled the Reich, nor did any Prussian king elevate to being Kaiser) is uncompelling.
General Pilates
Warlord
The British didn't really STOLED much. The Portuguese controlled a few coastal towns and that was it. Most of the British fighting(more learned people can correct me if I'm wrong) was at the beginning against the French and Bengalis. Even later I can't remember them seizing any Portuguese colonies. Portugal had fairly little control over the Indian sultans and they managed to seize Goa in the first place because of the decay of the Bahmanis.
