LastSword's Viet Nam for VP

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by Hinin, May 19, 2022.

  1. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    Viet Nam Empire
    Download here
    (requires Vox Populi 2.2 or later)
    (Made with LastSword's authorization)
    CivIcon.png
    Leader - Le Loi
    LeaderIcon.png
    UA - Nam Quoc Son Ha

    When entering War, spawn an Ranged and a Land Melee Unit. Civilizations you do not have a Trade Route with cannot trade with you. +1 :c5production: Production to Jungles and Marshes. Civilian and Great People Units gain the Wet Foot promotion.

    Wet Foot - Can cross Rivers without combat or movement penalty ; Double movement in Marsh and Jungle tiles ; +20% CS when defending on Marsh, Flood Plains or Oasis tiles.


    Spoiler Units spawned by the UA (tech requirements apply) :

    Ranged Units :
    - Slinger (if Pineappledan's Tweaks are used)
    - Archer (replaced by UU1)
    - Composite Bowman
    - Crossbowman
    - Musketman
    - Gatling Gun
    - Machine Gun (replaced by UU2)

    Melee Units :
    - Warrior
    - Spearman
    - Pikeman
    - Tercio
    - Fusilier
    - Rifleman
    - Infantry
    - Mechanized Infantry

    UU1 - Nghia Quan (replaces Archer)
    UU1 UnitIcon.png
    Unlocked at Trapping
    55 Production cost

    5 CS / 7 RCS (+1 / +1)
    2 MP / 2 Vision

    Cover I
    Wet Foot
    Maim
    - When attacking, inflicts the Maimed plague
    => Maimed - Loses 4 Visibility Range and suffers a 10% malus for flanking attacks (3 turns)
    Cannot Melee Attack
    Attack malus against Naval Units

    UI - Nha San
    ImprovementIcon.png

    Unlocked at Mathematics
    Can be placed on any resourceless Land tile near Water
    Doesn't require feature removal
    800 Production time

    +1 :c5food: Food
    +1 :c5culture: Culture
    +1 :c5goldenage: Golden Age point

    Yield bonuses :
    +1 :c5gold: Gold and :c5goldenage: Golden Age point per adjacent Nha San
    +1 :c5production: Production and :c5culture: Culture if on a City Connection Route (double for Railroad)
    +1 :c5food: Food to adjacent Farms and Plantations

    Tech bonuses :
    +1 :c5production: Production at Physics
    +1 :c5gold: Gold at Banking
    +1 :c5culture: Culture at Radio

    Deals 5 damages to hostile Units ending their turn next to it.
    Allows the passage of Naval Units when adjacent to Lake or Coast tiles.

    Spoiler 4UC Compatibility :

    UU2 - Mat Tran (replaces the Machine Gun)
    UU2 UnitIcon.png
    Unlocked at Replaceable Parts (instead of Ballistics)
    750 Production / 600 Faith (-200 / -100)

    45 CS / 58 RCS
    Stalwart
    Mobility
    Homeland Guardian
    Wet Foot
    Great Awakening
    - Always fights at full strength ; when killing, grants a large amount of Culture and Tourism
    Cannot Melee Attack
    Attack malus against Naval Units
    Covering Fire I

    UB - Mua Roi Nuoc (replaces the Bath)
    BuildingIcon.png
    Unlocked at Philosophy (instead of Metal Casting)
    200 Production cost
    1 GPT Maintenance cost
    Doesn't require Fresh Water

    +3 :c5production: Production
    +3 :c5faith: Faith


    +1 :c5culture: Culture and :c5gold: Gold to Amphitheaters, Temples and Gardens in the City
    +10% :c5culture: Culture in the City during Golden Ages

    Converts 10% of the City's :c5gold: Gold output into :c5culture: Culture.
    Whenever a Unit dies, grants :tourism: Tourism and GGeneral points, scaling with Era.



    Credits :
    - LastSword : Original mod, Original CivIcon, Leaderscreen, LeaderIcon, Map, DoM picture, UU1 UnitIcon, Original Research, Writing (Vietnam, led by Le Loi)
    - TPangolin : UImprovement 3d model and Icon, UU2 3d model and Research (Vietnam, led by the Trung Sisters)
    - SenshiDenshi : UU2 Icon
    - PrimoXanthous : UB Icon
    - Geoff Knorr : Peace and War Theme (Vietnam Medieval and Industrial Themes in Civ 6)
    - gwennog : new CivIcon
    - Hinin : VP adaptation, new Design and Code

    Special Thanks :
    - gwennog : testing and suggestions
    - VP Team : new SQL functions allowing the mod to function without lua
    - Rosete : help with component names and reviews
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2022
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  2. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    Reuploading right now : there was a problem with MUCfVP, and I don't know why it began working again...

    Also, known issue : when you have Replaceable Parts unlocked, but not Ballistics, declaring war spawns both a Gatling Gun and a Mat Tran (because the Gatling Gun isn't obsolete at this point). Not a big problem, but still wanted to indicate the reason why it happens.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2022
  3. Rosete

    Rosete Chieftain

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    Thanks for the mod, I really enjoy your work!

    Can I make a request to use Vietnamese names instead of the anglicized version?
    So that: Nam Quoc Son Ha --> Nam Quốc Sơn Hà
    Cung Thu --> Cung Thủ
    Mat Tran --> Mặt Trận
    Mua Roi Nuoc --> Múa Rối Nước

    I think Nỏ Thần would be a better name than Cung Thủ. Cung Thủ is a literal translation of "archers" while Nỏ Thần refers to the repeating crossbow that is used during that time and is featured in an old legend (An Dương Vương).

    I think Nhà Sàn is a better name than Dân Chúng, which is a literal translation of "citizens". Nhà Sàn are the elevated houses built in both the highlands region and the lowland river regions. Mechanic wise, does the UI allow canals longer than 2 tiles?

    I think it would be more appropriate for Múa Rối Nước to be an amphitheater replacement than a bath. Múa Rối Nước are theater entertainment, not communal bathhouses. Also, for thematic reasons, the UB should be heavier on the culture/faith side and not production.
     
  4. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    Thanks for the review and suggestions : having someone with good knowledge on the topic is always a blessing.
    One thing you must keep in mind is that the Civ V system has problems with accents. It was already difficult for some simple writings, so I don't know if it will handle the number present if we try to be truly faithful to the Vietnamese language. I already tried to introduce some spaces when it made sense (Viet Nam instead of Vietnam, Ha Noi instead of Hanoi), and I don't know if it will be possible to go much further unfortunately.

    That said, I'll still try to see how it goes.
    Thanks for that. I'll make the changes.

    No, it follows the same pattern as the Fort / Citadel : it allows boats to pass through only if adjacent to a coast / lake tile.
    I chose the Baths as a replacement more for gameplay than for thematic reasons :
    - it allows the civ to always have the benefits of the Baths in its cities (so bonus culture, gold and better GAges)
    - it don't like having the civ being forced into the upper part of the tech tree, but placing an Amphitheater replacement at Philosophy instead of Drama and Poetry would have been weird
    - the civ has already good synergy with Golden Ages (bonus Culture, Gold and Production), so emphasizing that made sense to me
    - the Amphitheater is already a heavily stacked building, so I didn't want to add even more to it

    For the yields of the building :
    - the building is very much focused towards culture, since it converts gold into culture (hence the lowered base culture yield);
    - the production yield is meant to be the secondary yield of the building, linked to Viet craftsmanship (in the same way that the Japanese Ukiyo-e Guild grants Science) + the production bonus when a unit dies is a way to show how individual lives fueled the Vietnamese mythos to help ciment national cohesion;
    - the faith yield is more a nod towards Vietnamese folk beliefs, but nothing else in the kit helps for religion (except the bonus to jungles / marshes helping if you take the Goddess of Renewal or Purity pantheons), so it's meant to be thematic more than a noticeable element of the kit (which would have required to weaken another aspect to compensate).
     
  5. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    So, I did the tests about adding accents, and it doesn't work. The game doesn't recognize the letters (see picture below).

    Spoiler picture :

    upload_2022-5-20_18-11-24.png

    That said, I'll still change the names you proposed for more correct ones in term of general meaning. Thanks again for your help. :)

    A question though : No Than is cleary a reference to the crossbow, but I don't want the unit to be a crossbowman (in term of gameplay, I would prefer the unit to stay an archer). I think a name more related to how ancient Vietnam dynasties would prefer levied armies to standing ones would be better. What do you think ?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
  6. Rosete

    Rosete Chieftain

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    In that case a more apt name can be Nghĩa Quân, which is lit. "fighters for the common good". These levied armies are mostly conscripted farmers.

    Another direction you may consider for a ranged unit replacement can reference Vietnam's early use of gunpowder in warfare (starting in 13th century).
    Some examples are:
    Hoả Tiễn, dynamite strapped iron arrows, used for traps or ambushes.
    Thủ Pháo, gunpowder filled bambo tubes that fires arrows, used by infantry.
    Hoả Thương, small handheld cannons that fires metal balls using gunpowder.

    Source from the National Museum of History
     
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  7. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    V.2 online :
    - Fixed problems linked to City Names and Diplomacy dialogues
    - Changed the names of the UU1 and UB for better alternatives (thanks @Rosete)
    - Reworked the UI after discovering the adjacency function I was using wasn't working for culture
    - Buffed the UU1 : removed the Sentry promotion, added Cover I and +1 CS / RCS in exchange. The unit still doesn't strike hard, but it is more difficult to kill.
    - Tweak to the UB : removed the base Culture yield, replaced by 1 Faith (meaning the Gold conversion is even more central for the cultural output of the building throughout the game)
     
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  8. adan_eslavo

    adan_eslavo Archmage of all Pixels Supporter

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    I always thought Vietnamese is for hardcores :p
     
  9. Rosete

    Rosete Chieftain

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    Some early game feedback:

    I think this is my favorite UI ever. It gives solid yields and I really love that it doubles as a semi-fort. I think the spam ability of the UI can be toned down a bit by limiting it to placed on any Land tile near Water only. I think this will allow the adjacency bonus to farms and plantations to shine more. Because right now it is much more straightforward to just spam this everywhere.

    I like the UA, I think the free unit can be toned down a bit to just 1 mele 1 ranged unit. Early on, the mele naval doesn't serve much purpose, I often just sell or gift them to city-states. Is it possible for all civilian units to get the wet foot promotion? A small buff to compensate.

    I like that the UU1 has a very cool utility role. It essentially shuts down the opposing range unit (can't shoot if no vision), but is still vulnerable to mele. Getting cover is a nice bonus, but not a big deal since range units don't have enough HP to tank, and mele still cripples them. I'm not clear about the flanking malus, does the unit takes 10% more or deal 10% less?

    The UB gives good yields. I think the civ will be very scary in AI hands. Imagine fighting vs AI that gets a bunch of yields each time you take out one of their units. I never go for cultural victory so I never care much for tourism. But given a runaway Vietnam AI, do you think the bonus tourism would create a scenario where the player declares war on the AI, killing its units and inadvertently helping the AI's victory condition?

    Also, the color is a bit too pale, making it hard to distinguish between units that has action vs those that don't. Maybe making the color a bit darker?

    Haven't made it to UU2 yet, will update later.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  10. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    I agree. The possibility to place it on Plantations and Farms is a remnant of the time the UI requires triangles (2 other UI) to gain yields, and thus Farms and Plantations could ruin adjacency bonuses. That's not really the case anymore, and so I'll do the change. Plus, it removes the problematic fact that ideology tenets boosting UIs were op on Viet Nam in that state.
    That was a way for me to not make Vietnam a purely terrestrial power, knowing that coastal defense was also historically important for it. That said, I'm not against the idea of doing what you suggest.
    Basically, when a unit flanks an hostile unit (meaning it has more allied unit adjacent to the targeted enemy than hostile units around itself), it gains 10% bonus CS per allied unit (minus the number of hostile adjacent unit), and some promotions increase this bonus (Shock, for example, gives +5% bonus to flanking, meaning +15% CS per flanker, instead of +10%).
    The idea with maim is to nullify the base bonus of flanking by giving the unit -10% to flanking, meaning that if the maimed unit doesn't have additional flanking bonuses (Shock promotions, Zulu promotions etc), it will no longer benefit from flanking at all unit the Maimed plague disappears, and will still benefit a lot less from it in all cases.
     
  11. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    To me, that's the point. Vietnam has no bonus to science or diplomacy, but trying to force your way against it through brute force will be detrimental to you in the long term : it will give them bonus units, increase their cultural influence and military power (through GGeneral points) whenever you kill on of their units, and if they kill your units in the endgame with the Mat Tran they'll gain even more Tourism and Culture. In a way, they are an answer to warmongering being "the most efficient strategy" to deal with the gameplan of other civs : you must either crush them decisively, or find alternate ways to weaken them, because a protracted war will be a victory for them.
    I'll see what I can do.
     
  12. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    V.3 online :
    - UA : Removed Naval Melee Units from the UA (I was iffy about that part anyway) ; gave Wet Foot to all Civilian and Great People Units as a compensation
    - UI : Removed the possibility to place the UI on Farms and Plantations (no longer is a problem now that the adjacency bonus has been modified + reduces the UI spam)
    - UB : Removed the Production bonus from Unit Deaths, but increased the Tourism bonus slightly
    - Civ UnitFlags : Darkened the background color a bit to allow for units which have already used up all their actions to be more visible among others

    The Production bonus on Unit deaths will reappear soon, elsewhere. :devil:
     
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  13. looorg

    looorg King

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    So this is where my talk about a Death cult is going to reappear ... :mischief:

    Anyhow. This is a highly God like starting civ if you get the right geography. A riverdelta jungle start and you are just laughing. There doesn't even have to be any or many special tiles; luxuries or strats. In some regard you don't even really want them. If I could just ignore all the bananas and build a Nah san on top of them I would. I guess there is a point to that it doesn't connect whatever is under it. That would just be epic. Image below of Ha Noi with it's jungle river delta; this is in early medieval era so all the support buildings are not even there yet or the tech that improve the Nah San.

    It was a bit sad when I had to chop the jungles for the coco. But non-jungle-nahsan tiles are just not really worth working in comparison; I do work a couple of them but some of them are just not ideal like the cattle etc. Good before math but not really all that interesting afterwards. Even the academy isn't worked anymore.

    c5vox-nam-cap.png

    I'm not really sure how the Maim is supposed to work but they don't appear to have any vision issues. That said of cause they are normally always in range and it's not like the units magically disappear when they shoot you so I guess they can still figure out where you are or just move about a bit but they don't seem to be very lost or doesn't appear to have much of an impact. So I guess you mostly shoot them to reduce their flanking bonus.

    Nor am I sure if it is intended but you can get a chain-reaction, or sorts, of unit spawns when wars are declared with some participants having defensive pacts that drag more and more countries in the war as it will spawn a melee and a range per country that gets dragged into it even if you only declared on one country or they on you or someone that you have pact with. All the world just chain reacted into wars and I got a lot of new units in one turn. It's probably intended, or can't be separated out as the spawn is on war and they all now count as separate wars even tho they started out as joint wars etc.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
  14. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    Vision sharing means that you need to spread the plague as much as possible to gain tangible effects. That said, the unit counters other archers quite well, especially in duels. :)
    Yup, thanks for giving me the idea. Benin Unit Recycling Inc. congratulates you. :satan:
     
  15. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond King

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    Trying this new civ and it looks very interesting! I just wondered how "Civilizations you do not have a Trade Route with cannot trade with you" works. From the start I have been able to trade with anybody without trade routes. They also occasionally suggest some trade deals with me that I can accept. Is it a bug?
     
  16. Hinin

    Hinin Emperor

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    It's very simple : as long as you do not have a Trade Route (Caravan or Cargo Ship) sent towards a civilization, this civilization cannot send a Trade Route towards you.

    It means that if you have more policies or technologies or are under the cultural influence of another civilization, it cannot gain yields from you without your direct consent (in the form of a Trade Route sent to it).
     
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  17. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond King

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    Ok got it, we're only talking about trade routes here. I thought it'd also affect trade deals in general.

    Thanks!
     
  18. notaspambot

    notaspambot Warlord

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    The UA here is using the old Japanese UA, right? If so, then I think it should also be mentioned that the UA also comes with a tourism penalty on other civs towards you if they don't have trade routes with you.
     

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