Lawful/Chaotic Alignment Axis Balance

Yeah, I don't think I'll have the Order make you Good/Evil at all, honestly. Even though I put it on the chart. When thomas.berubeg's Religious Schisms are complete, there will be a good and evil version (I believe, would have to check to be sure).

And the same is planned for OO. I don't think the religion in and of itself has to be all that evil.

Order has the possibility of splitting into the Imperium in evil civs, and the OO will have a good version, as well as a more neutral version of the one that is in game now (which I see as pretty damn evil)

Of course, these events are not set to trigger as soon as the religion spreads to evil civs, but rather will happen like any other event.
 
Shouldn't True Neutral work the other way around?
If you do it the way you have planned now, Cassiel can pretty much do anything he wants. He can be saving cute kittens from trees for the whole day or building the evil doomsday weapon (of doom) and pretty much don't care what happens.
That sounds more like neutral neutral to me.
If it would be true neutral (as in actively seeking balance in all things) i would imagine it more like a trait which gives more boni the nearer you are to neutral/neutral and less boni if you venture too far into the extremes, where it wouldn't matter if the extremes are lawful good, or chaotic evil (or any other combination).
Another possibilty would be a positive trait that you lose as soons as you gain an alignment, other than neutral neutral, which you can'T get back.
That would make you actively try to balance your actions.
Building an asylum makes me more chaotic? Than I have to build a courthouse to balance things out.
 
Shouldn't True Neutral work the other way around?
If you do it the way you have planned now, Cassiel can pretty much do anything he wants. He can be saving cute kittens from trees for the whole day or building the evil doomsday weapon (of doom) and pretty much don't care what happens.
That sounds more like neutral neutral to me.
If it would be true neutral (as in actively seeking balance in all things) i would imagine it more like a trait which gives more boni the nearer you are to neutral/neutral and less boni if you venture too far into the extremes, where it wouldn't matter if the extremes are lawful good, or chaotic evil (or any other combination).
Another possibilty would be a positive trait that you lose as soons as you gain an alignment, other than neutral neutral, which you can'T get back.
That would make you actively try to balance your actions.
Building an asylum makes me more chaotic? Than I have to build a courthouse to balance things out.


Hmm... Maybe True Neutral should simply pull you towards Neutral, but still allow all the other effects? That way you still have to try to maintain it, but it'll be a more natural effect.
 
Good idea - Though I was never a fan of D&D; I can see the obvious pro's in using the typical alignment system instead of designing a Morality system proper (Where more beastial and monstrous civilizations would start at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to Morality and so on and so forth).

But this aint a horror game, so that'd just be annoying.
 
Like I said in the other thread Faeryl and Jonas alignment don't really fit. A lawful evil character would not betray his enemies as he believes in loyalty and thinks that betrayal will make it harder to achieve his goals as everyone can betray him as well. I think Faeryl is the definition of Neutral Evil as she is only loyal to her allies if they stay useful for her. She doesn't believe in loyalty and laws as she mistrusts everyone (see her pedia entry). In her opinion her allies will instantly betray her if they don't fear her and if she does not watch them perpetuously.
Jonas on the other hand does not see any value in life and thus should be evil. In Orbis that has differentiated the religion weights of the leaders better than base FFH Jonas even has +50 weight on AV whilst Sheelba has -20 weight on AV (and strangely +20 on Empyrion. Does anyone know what was the reasoning behind that).
 
Like I said in the other thread Faeryl and Jonas alignment don't really fit. A lawful evil character would not betray his enemies as he believes in loyalty and thinks that betrayal will make it harder to achieve his goals as everyone can betray him as well. I think Faeryl is the definition of Neutral Evil as she is only loyal to her allies if they stay useful for her. She doesn't believe in loyalty and laws as she mistrusts everyone (see her pedia entry). In her opinion her allies will instantly betray her if they don't fear her and if she does not watch them perpetuously.
Jonas on the other hand does not see any value in life and thus should be evil. In Orbis that has differentiated the religion weights of the leaders better than base FFH Jonas even has +50 weight on AV whilst Sheelba has -20 weight on AV (and strangely +20 on Empyrion. Does anyone know what was the reasoning behind that).

This all makes sense but I'm not sure "loyalty" = "lawful". I can easily conceive of a culture which is very lawful and ordered but views other cultures as primitives, subhumans, or even just plain enemies, and thus they don't count.
 
Yeah you're probably right, but the question is: How does Faeryl treat the alliances she makes with other Svartalfar. As I imagine Faeryl and the Darkelven culture in general everyone mistrusts everyone and only looks about how he can gain the best position. IMHO that's neutral evil, not lawful evil.
 
I've decided to go with a meter ranging from -750 to 750. It allows us to balance a bit better, and gives a clear, common-sense value for each alignment. In a total range of 1500, each alignment gets a value range of 500. ;)

To go with it, I've redone the chart displaying the religions... For now, the White Hand has been dropped from the chart, as it's not currently implemented and could just confuse people.

Keep in mind, FoL's shift towards Neutrality on the Good-Evil axis is not shown... Rather difficult to do so. It receives a 3-per turn Neutral shift.



Firstly, the Max Shift. This is the maximum alignment each Religion is able to bring you to, and includes the effects from both of the following charts.

Spoiler :
MaxShift.jpg


Then we have the Instant Shifts. These are the instant effects each religion has on your alignment. These effects can be cross-axis from the standard effects, and dissipate when you switch away from the religion.

Spoiler :
InstantShift.jpg


Finally, the PerTurn shifts. These are the amounts each religion will cause you to move each turn.
Spoiler :

PerTurnShift.jpg
 
Isn't machirium lawful evil? On that chart it says that it gives -50 to ethics (thus chaotic).
 
FoL's chaotic shift seems too strong to me. I'd halve all the values.

Everything else looks good.
 
Alright, going to list the leader alignments I've settled on. Feel free to pick it apart and try to change my mind, putting this out now for just that purpose; Only a few days until I'd like to release, though. :p The civs/leaders are listed in XML order, as I'm just writing it as I come to it in the file.. Multi-civ leaders are left with the first civ they come under.

The numbers in parenthesis are their Broader Alignment values, Lawful/Chaotic and then Good/Evil. Both scales range from -750 -> 750, leaving 500 for each alignment (-750->-250, -249->249, 250->750). Should be easy to recognize where exactly a leader falls. Most Good/Evil alignment values are simply the current value multiplied by 1.5 (Scale used to cap at 500), several have been changed, however. Most drastic would be Perpentach or Falamar, but I think both fit better in the new alignments. ;)


  • Bannor
    • Sabathiel - Lawful Good (750 / 555)
    • Capria - Lawful Good (500 / 495)
    • Tethira - Good (240 / 495)
    • Angaad - Lawful (600 / 180)
    • Ophelia - Neutral (200 / -115)
    • Decius - Lawful (350) While his Good/Evil status is choosable, he does NOT get to choose his Lawful/Chaotic status.
  • Malakim
    • Varn - Good (50 / 465)
    • Kane - Lawful (425 / 172)
  • Elohim
    • Ethne - Good (-50 / 440)
    • Einion - Good (200 / 750)
    • Thessalonica - Lawful Good (300 / 450)
  • Mercurians
    • Basium - Chaotic Good (-750 / 400)
  • Luchuirp
    • Garrim - Good (220 / 325)
    • Beeri - Lawful Good (295 / 288)
    • Gimil - Neutral (142 / 173)
    • Letigo - Neutral (-175 / 55)
  • Kuriotates
    • Cardith - Good (-25 / 480)
    • Herne - Lawful Good (275 / 340)
    • Cheron - Chaotic (-420 / -150)
    • Yakut - Good (145 / 610)
  • Ljosalfar
    • Amelanchier - Chaotic (-350 / 30)
    • Arendel - Good (100 / 270)
    • Thessa - Neutral (-150 / -30)
    • Eldarwen - Lawful Good (280 / 375)
  • Khazad
    • Arturus - Neutral (40 / 40)
    • Kandros - Lawful (280 / 25)
    • Athel - Lawful Evil (625 / -315)
    • Reorx - Neutral (125 / -50)
  • Sidar
    • Sandalphon - Chaotic (-420 / 15)
    • Mirrough - Neutral (80 / -45)
    • Shekinah - Neutral (-115 / 0)
  • Lanun
    • Falamar - Chaotic Good (-570 / 275)
    • Hannah - Chaotic (-610 / -240)
    • Casin - Neutral (-210 / -160)
    • Mordmorgan - Good (90 / 315)
    • Blackheart - Lawful Evil (315 / -340)
  • Grigori
    • Cassiel - True Neutral (0 / 0) BA does not effect his alignment; Will always be neutral.
    • Goodreau - Good (180 / 345)
    • Koun - Lawful (300 / 50)
    • Esirce - Lawful (340 / -75)
  • Hippus
    • Tasunke - Chaotic (-490 / -80)
    • Rhoanna - Lawful (370 / 100)
    • Ostanes - Neutral (0 / 0)
    • Uldanor - Neutral (0 / 100)
  • Amurite
    • Valledia - Neutral (-220 / -110)
    • Dain - Good (80 / 390)
    • Tya - Chaotic (-600 / 0)
    • Lorelei - Neutral (-100 / 0)
    • Naxus - Chaotic Evil (-315 / -475)
    • Xivan - Lawful (625) As with Decius, may not choose Lawful/Chaotic alignment.
  • Doviello
    • Charadon - Chaotic Evil (-555 / -330)
    • Mahala - Neutral (-100 / -235)
    • Duin - Chaotic Evil (-475 / -475)
  • Balseraph
    • Keelyn - Chaotic Evil (-570 / -285)
    • Perpentach - Chaotic (-750 / 0) Fits the definition of Chaotic Neutral as 'Insane'.
    • Weevil - Chaotic Evil (-600 / -490)
    • Nojah - Neutral (-190 / -100)
    • Furia - Chaotic Evil (-320 / -450)
    • Melisandre - Evil (20 / -400)
  • Clan
    • Jonas - Chaotic (-620 / -230)
    • Sheelba - Evil (-120 / -350)
    • Hafgan - Chaotic Evil (-600 / -550)
  • Svartalfar
    • Faeryl - Evil (50 / -400)
    • Rivanna - Chaotic Evil (-300 / -360)
    • Utirisu - Lawful Evil (485 / -325)
    • Volanna - Chaotic Evil (-625 / -600)
    • Jivorn - Evil (0 / -420)
  • Calabim
    • Alexis - Evil (240 / -475)
    • Flauros - Lawful Evil (750 / -465)
    • Mahon - Chaotic Evil (-525 / -450)
    • Elijah - Lawful Evil (625 / -615)
  • Sheaim
    • Tebryn - Chaotic Evil (-680 / -550)
    • Os-Gabella - Evil (-80 / -540)
    • Malchavic - Chaotic Evil (-680 / -600)
  • Infernal
    • Hyborem - Chaotic Evil (-750 / -750)
  • Illian
    • Auric - Lawful Evil (750 / -320)
    • Raitlor - Lawful (620 / -180)
  • Cualli
    • Kolshevahn - Lawful Evil (500 / -375)
    • Mihuatl - Evil (200 / -525)
    • Cuai-Ixl - Chaotic Evil (-335 / -530)
  • Archos
    • Daracaat - Chaotic Evil (-560 / -405)
    • Corane - Evil (-75 / -220)
  • Kahdi
    • Kahd - Neutral (25 / -20)
  • Chislev
    • Natane - Chaotic (-380 / 70)
    • Absaroke - Neutral (185 / 75)
  • Mazatl
    • Hianthrogh - Good (100 / 420)
  • Dural
    • Danmos - Good (-120 / 310)
  • Austrin
    • Deirdra - Chaotic (-650 / 50)
  • Scions
    • Emperor - Lawful (750 / -150)
    • Korinna - Neutral (200 / 150)
  • Jotnar
    • Mother Enningas - Good (35 / 300)
    • Father Kasghenal - Lawful (680 / 0)
    • Uxol - Chaotic Evil (-260 / -350)
    • Hephaestus - Lawful (325 / -50)
  • Legion of D'tesh
    • D'tesh - Evil (-710 / 0)
    • Thanatos - Lawful Evil (425 / -330)
  • Mechanos
    • Verrochio - Neutral (115 / 55)
    • Maer - Lawful (485 / 225)
  • Frozen
    • Taranis - Lawful Evil (750 / -275) As with Cassiel, he is incapable of changing alignment. As he is only able to adopt a Lawful Evil religion, nothing will change his alignment away from this.
 
I think ethne and einion should be lawful. The elohim are a protective, dutiful people.

Basium is so overwhelmingly utterly lawful good that It's illogical to think of why you'd choose anything else. Make Basium lawful please. Check his pedia entry where he crushes people without hesitation because they show the slightest demonic influence, even though they were offering to help. A case could be made for basium not actually being good given the disregard for life, and I wouldn't mind him being on the low end of good so he can easioly become neutral. But his lawful/chaotic stance is unquestioningly far towards lawful. He's devoted his eternal life to hunting down and destroying demons wherever they appear.

I think all ljosalfar leaders need a little more of a chaotic shift

Make Arturus lawful. A non-lawful dwarf is heresy!

Is there a reason why Mordmorgan isn't chaotic?

I'd make all the hippus leaders chaotic, personally

Make Dain chaotic, IMO. Possibly valledia too. Chaotic neutral is synonymous with magic

I'd say chaotic for Sheelba too

Faeryl definitely needs to be chaotic, moreso than being evil. Dark elves are known for loving partying, and being all about backstabbing. I'd say make her slightly less evil, but a lot more chaotic.

Any reason why Os Gabella isn't chaotic?


You know how I feel about cualli, but we already discussed that.

I notice you changed the chislev alignments from what was previously posted. I disapprove. They need a chaotic leader, and absaroke didn't seem too lawful to me. I'd say go back to natane as chaotic

I mentioned korinna earlier also.

The mechanos strike me as chaotic personally, given their intentions of overthrowing the gods, disrupting the old order, etc, and bringing in a new era of mankind. they're revolutionaries in a sense.


In general, I feel you have a bit too many neutrals for my liking. I'm especially not too happy about the wide discrepancies between individual leaders of the civ. I'd like to think "I see hippus, must be chaotic". And granted there's the odd leader who goes against the grain, like that evil dwarven guy, but I think some of your leaders don't follow their civ's expected alignment well enough

That is all
 
Basium is so overwhelmingly utterly lawful good that It's illogical to think of why you'd choose anything else. Make Basium lawful please. Check his pedia entry where he crushes people without hesitation because they show the slightest demonic influence, even though they were offering to help. A case could be made for basium not actually being good given the disregard for life, and I wouldn't mind him being on the low end of good so he can easioly become neutral. But his lawful/chaotic stance is unquestioningly far towards lawful. He's devoted his eternal life to hunting down and destroying demons wherever they appear.

Basium is so Chaotic he reeks of it. Compare him to Superman, who is Lawful, and you get the idea.
 
I think ethne and einion should be lawful. The elohim are a protective, dutiful people.

I wasn't sure here. I DID give them one Lawful leader, but opted not to for the others. I want Einion to be the max Good leader, and Ethne I don't think can be described Lawful after the scenarios (Brought in the Mercurians against the laws of her people in order to save them. Not chaotic, but not lawful.)

Basium is so overwhelmingly utterly lawful good that It's illogical to think of why you'd choose anything else. Make Basium lawful please. Check his pedia entry where he crushes people without hesitation because they show the slightest demonic influence, even though they were offering to help. A case could be made for basium not actually being good given the disregard for life, and I wouldn't mind him being on the low end of good so he can easioly become neutral. But his lawful/chaotic stance is unquestioningly far towards lawful. He's devoted his eternal life to hunting down and destroying demons wherever they appear.

Working from the same exact base material, I view him as chaotic. An absolute disregard for who he kills in order to get his way? How does that fit lawful? He broke the highest law he was required to abide by in order to continue his crusade against Evil; He is Good, but he is nowhere NEAR Lawful. Unless you can come up with an explanation for him being both Lawful AND breaking the highest law in Erebus, he will remain as the Lawful Chaotic leader (If you check, there are 9 leaders with max alignments in one axis or another)

Edit: To clarify, I'll post the definitions I'm using for the two axes... Warkirby, you should recognize these. Although the post IS from October. ;)

Lawful: Actions determined by rules of others
Chaotic: Actions determined by own beliefs

Good: Actions to help or protect others
Evil: Actions to serve own interests only, even at the expense of others

All other alignments can be put together using these bases. Neutral falls in between.

I think all ljosalfar leaders need a little more of a chaotic shift

For the most part, I agree. I opted for different alignments (Within reason) for gameplay purposes, however. Most have high weightings towards Chaotic.

Make Arturus lawful. A non-lawful dwarf is heresy!

Again, gameplay.

Is there a reason why Mordmorgan isn't chaotic?

Ditto.

I'd make all the hippus leaders chaotic, personally

Ditto again, though I may do so with all but Rhoanna.

Make Dain chaotic, IMO. Possibly valledia too. Chaotic neutral is synonymous with magic

Now here, I honestly wasn't sure. There are enough leaders I can afford some variation here.

I'd say chaotic for Sheelba too

Again, gameplay. They have 1 Chaotic, 1 Evil, 1 Chaotic Evil. I'd prefer to keep it that way.

Faeryl definitely needs to be chaotic, moreso than being evil. Dark elves are known for loving partying, and being all about backstabbing.

I don't see her as too chaotic. Yes, they are backstabbing... But I'm also fairly sure that amongst themselves, they'd be fairly law-abiding. The two balance out.

Any reason why Os Gabella isn't chaotic?

This one I wasn't sure about. Might change it if more people question it.

You know how I feel about cualli, but we already discussed that.

You felt they should be Chaotic Evil (Clarifying for others who read. ;)). Personally, I'm not sure about that. From what Vehem has said before, they seem to have an ordered society, even if they advance by killing their superior. One thing I'd like to bring up: One of your own posts in the FF Team forum describes the Cualli as Lawful Evil. ;)

I notice you changed the chislev alignments from what was previously posted. I disapprove. They need a chaotic leader, and absaroke didn't seem too lawful to me. I'd say go back to natane as chaotic

Really wondering when I changed that... Wasn't intentional, and had I been paying more attention I'd have caught it. Natane is back to Chaotic (-380) and Absaroke is Neutral, though weighted towards Lawful (185).

I mentioned korinna earlier also.

Yes, but again, gameplay. She's very close to Lawful, but I want to keep her neutral.

The mechanos strike me as chaotic personally, given their intentions of overthrowing the gods, disrupting the old order, etc, and bringing in a new era of mankind. they're revolutionaries in a sense.

That is all

I'm not sure... I tend to view them as being skewed towards lawful evil, though remaining Neutral. Many of their techpriests (who are in control of a large amount of power) are VERY logical thinkers... Just read the pedia entries. To me, computer logic like that is equivalent to Lawful.
 
Spoiler :
I think ethne and einion should be lawful. The elohim are a protective, dutiful people.

Basium is so overwhelmingly utterly lawful good that It's illogical to think of why you'd choose anything else. Make Basium lawful please. Check his pedia entry where he crushes people without hesitation because they show the slightest demonic influence, even though they were offering to help. A case could be made for basium not actually being good given the disregard for life, and I wouldn't mind him being on the low end of good so he can easioly become neutral. But his lawful/chaotic stance is unquestioningly far towards lawful. He's devoted his eternal life to hunting down and destroying demons wherever they appear.

I think all ljosalfar leaders need a little more of a chaotic shift

Make Arturus lawful. A non-lawful dwarf is heresy!

Is there a reason why Mordmorgan isn't chaotic?

I'd make all the hippus leaders chaotic, personally

Make Dain chaotic, IMO. Possibly valledia too. Chaotic neutral is synonymous with magic

I'd say chaotic for Sheelba too

Faeryl definitely needs to be chaotic, moreso than being evil. Dark elves are known for loving partying, and being all about backstabbing. I'd say make her slightly less evil, but a lot more chaotic.

Any reason why Os Gabella isn't chaotic?


You know how I feel about cualli, but we already discussed that.

I notice you changed the chislev alignments from what was previously posted. I disapprove. They need a chaotic leader, and absaroke didn't seem too lawful to me. I'd say go back to natane as chaotic

I mentioned korinna earlier also.

The mechanos strike me as chaotic personally, given their intentions of overthrowing the gods, disrupting the old order, etc, and bringing in a new era of mankind. they're revolutionaries in a sense.


In general, I feel you have a bit too many neutrals for my liking. I'm especially not too happy about the wide discrepancies between individual leaders of the civ. I'd like to think "I see hippus, must be chaotic". And granted there's the odd leader who goes against the grain, like that evil dwarven guy, but I think some of your leaders don't follow their civ's expected alignment well enough

That is all



I disagree with a bunch of this.

The Elohim don't strike me as particularly lawful, just good. They just do what is right without any bias towards order or chaos.

Basium = CG. He pretty much epitomizes the idea of doing the right thing and breaking every law that stands in your way. He breaks the spirit of the compact. He isn't big on allies and making agreements with others. He just wants to kill demons. That's it.

Mordmorgan could be either good or CG. Since all we have is the 1 pedia entry, it's hard to determine which. I would lean towards good, since he doesn't strike me as reckless or free-spirited. Just a guy doing good on the high-seas.

Hippus: I think they should be only slightly chaotic. Hippus are torn between their free-range roots and their new-found life as mercs. They have had to give up some of their freedom to settle down to sell muscle to the highest bidder.

Amurites: I agree somewhat, but Dain shouldn't be full chaotic, just neutral with a chaotic lean (-80?). Valledia seems fine where she is.

Os-Gabella seems to be another prime example of an alignment, namely NE. She is being incredibly selfish by destroying creation to kill herself (one of the main examples given in any D&D book). She cares only about herself and everyone else is either a tool or an obstacle.

The others I either don't know enough about, agree with Valk, or don't really care.
 
Working from the same exact base material, I view him as chaotic. An absolute disregard for who he kills in order to get his way? How does that fit lawful? He broke the highest law he was required to abide by in order to continue his crusade against Evil; He is Good, but he is nowhere NEAR Lawful. Unless you can come up with an explanation for him being both Lawful AND breaking the highest law in Erebus, he will remain as the Lawful Chaotic leader (If you check, there are 9 leaders with max alignments in one axis or another)

Edit: To clarify, I'll post the definitions I'm using for the two axes... Warkirby, you should recognize these. Although the post IS from October. ;)

Lawful: Actions determined by rules of others
Chaotic: Actions determined by own beliefs

Good: Actions to help or protect others
Evil: Actions to serve own interests only, even at the expense of others

Maybe you should take the opportunity and rename them Red Hats and Blue Hats.

By that standard Basium should be Chaotic Evil. He doesn't care about rules or helping anyone. He just wants to kill Demons. (And anyone possessed by Demons or who associates with demons, has met Demons, knows about Demons, might meet Demons some time in the future or isn't sufficiently interested in killing Demons.)

In Fall from Heaven:
Good: Dislikes Demons
Evil: Likes Demons

Maybe you should take the opportunity to rename them Red Hats and Blue Hats. Then no one could confuse them with the ethical concepts of good and evil.

I'd make all the hippus leaders chaotic, personally

I'd make them all Lawful.

They're mercenaries, they need to follow their agreements.

And they're a semi-nomadic tribal society. If they don't follow tradition and take care of their herds, they starve. Freedom requires knowing where your next meal comes from.
 
Back
Top Bottom