Leader / Civ Picking Thread

Cool... Yeah I def see the benefits with ORG..

It's almost as we should have a poll on traits, rather than leaders.. But then again they do complement each other, so such a poll needs to be in two rounds- first trait first, and then second round with the remainding available traits.

But for me, this discussion is vastly more fruitful than polls, really. Still, might be intesting?
 
So many opponents have FIN leaders, that I don't like the idea that we won't have one as well :(. Without tech trading it will be easier to fall behind in tech. We need FIN, or PHI of that I am still sure. We also want ORG and SPI. So that's:

Mansa Musa - FIN, SPI
Fredrick - ORG, PHI
Ghandi - PHI, SPI
Asoka - SPI, ORG

Also socralynnek, majic, cavscout and Caledorn have mentioned getting Huyana Capac- FIN, IND .

I have also heard Hannibal - FIN,CHA from bowsling and cavscout as well as Hammurabi- AGG,ORG from bowsling and talonschild

2metra and bistrita have both suggested Suryarnam - EXP,CRE

The rest of the suggestions seem to be by just one person so far. I still favor Mansa Musa at this point.
 
Organized. It is, I'll admit, a later-game economic trait than Financial
Click to expand...
Actually, it is earlier than FIN economic trait. You start to see its benefit from even the second city you put, where you need some time to see any benefit from FIN. Not to mention without rivers in the capitol FIN shines in the mid-game, while ORG helps you trough the whole game. I read somewhere that you need to work 40% financial tiles to break even with ORG. That starts to become fact in the middle game. I think FIN loses its potential advantage in the later game where you potentially get 8-9 commerce with FIN and 7-8 without FIN, so only ~15% increase opposed to the 50% advantage when getting 3 commerce instead of 2 in the early-mid-game.
 
:) I think SPI is great trait, but in this game it will be like wearing signal red suit.
 
Don't forget that ORG does not cut City maintenance by 50%, it cuts CIVIC maintenance by 50%. So it won't have any impact on the 2nd city we build, or any city we build. It only effects city maintenance because it make courthouses cheaper to build. But you still have to tech CoL and build the Courthouse to get the benefit.

And I like Red suits:D... This guy I know wears one, and EVERYONE tries so hard to stay on his good side:santa2:

Cause they know he sees everything that is going on all the time... Like he see when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake...;)
 
Some things I was just thinking:

1. I have read that Fast Workers save about the same amount of time as having EXP trait, so if we have Fast workers we don't necessarity need EXP

2. We can use Fast Worker to chop Stonehenge and then we don't need CRE

3. If we have SPI, then we can use SPI for a quick switch to Pacifism and if we use Fast Worker to Chop Parthenon, it is just like having PHI too.:) Not to mention with SPI we can change to Mercantilism and Caste System too all at the same time with no Anarchy.
 
Here's a detailed summary of what other teams have chosen. When I started to add up what everyone has picked a couple of clear pictures emerged which have altered my thinking on our leader choice.

5/7 Financial
1/7 Philosophical
2/7 Aggressive
2/7 Organized
1/7 Charismatic
2/7 Expansive
1/7 Creative

4/4 Mysticism
2/4 Mining
1/4 Hunting
1/4 Agriculture

Looking at the breakdown of leader traits so far, there’s only one trait that stands out above the others, Financial. It’s clear that there is a preference for Financial among the teams we’re competing against, not choosing Financial could very plausibly lead to us falling behind in tech. With tech trading off, and everyone’s guard up against espionage, I think the safer bet is to pick a financial leader.

Conversely, the trait that we’ve been discussing as highly significant, Spiritual, has not been chose by anyone! To succeed we’re going to need to not just match the opposing teams, but also to differentiate ourselves, this is one place to do it. We have some good players on this team who will be able to take full advantage of changing our own civics, and any added defensive, or offensive capability that this gives us with espionage is just gravy.

The other alternative that nobody has chosen is Industrious. Huayna Capac allows us to get that with Financial, and again gives us a way to differentiate ourselves. As Somerswerd has pointed out, there are a lot of wonders that give the same benefits as a leader trait. Being able to produce these more quickly than other teams would allow us to gain a lot of benefits. Our leader choice can supplement the advantage we already have from fast workers.

When I looked at techs I was very surprised to see that everyone has Mysticism! The race for an early religion looks very competitive already, with 5 teams left to pick. Mining has been fairly common too, and likely will continue to be, so we won’t be differentiating ourselves on tech. Only one team has Hunting so far, that may provide a big benefit for diplomacy, meeting other civs early is important to establishing alliances UniversCivilization will have an edge there.

Based on what other teams have picked. I’m more convinced than ever that Financial is a must. However, I’m starting to lean away from Mansa Musa because of the very real possibility that we can grab tons of easy wonders with Huayna Capac. Adding to the list of leader traits that we can mimic with wonders, don’t forget the Christo Redentor, it will effectively make us Spiritual. Of course it comes in pretty late, and the espionage game will have picked up well before then, but if we can survive on a level espionage playing field for most of the game, we’ll be able to give ourselves a serious advantage in the closing stages.
 
See, that's why you get paid the big bucks. I'm fully behind Financial now. I would like to dive at an early religion - let's keep that in mind for teching.

Between Spiritual and Industrious... I don't know. I love Wonders. I also have a thing against building them in multiplayer, because I adhere to the line of thought that says Conquest is the best victory - the path to victory is also a deterrent against dogpiles, while peaceful wins tend to distract from the military side while also providing advanced warning to your rivals that the time for preventative war is now. So I prefer Spiritual in the respect - no time off building Wonders.

Actually my strategy tends to involve an early religion w/ shrine, plus the University of Sankore, the Sistine Chapel, and the Spiral Minaret. Lots of religious buildings and cottages round out the economy. Lots of military units crush foes. That was the plan I intended to push. Industrious seems to run counter to it by encouraging a different style of gameplay with time building other things. So I'm now gonna vote for Mansa Musa.

That is all.
 
Sommerswerd said:
Some things I was just thinking:

1. I have read that Fast Workers save about the same amount of time as having EXP trait, so if we have Fast workers we don't necessarity need EXP
Click to expand...

Why no love for EXP? I actually feel the opposite of what sommers says above. Fast Workers are our unique unit, we want to build lots of them! It's a unit that gives us the ability to do things that no other teams can do. We'll want maybe a slightly reduced number on the homefront improving our lands, but also enough to divert for military purposes. In short, we should build more fast workers then we would have built normal workers, so a trait that makes them cheaper is a great thing.

However...

grant2004 said:
Looking at the breakdown of leader traits so far, there’s only one trait that stands out above the others, Financial. It’s clear that there is a preference for Financial among the teams we’re competing against, not choosing Financial could very plausibly lead to us falling behind in tech. With tech trading off, and everyone’s guard up against espionage, I think the safer bet is to pick a financial leader.
Click to expand...

This can't really be argued with; we need FIN! I guess my vote is for Mansa Musa after all.
 
Don't forget that ORG does not cut City maintenance by 50%, it cuts CIVIC maintenance by 50%. So it won't have any impact on the 2nd city we build, or any city we build. It only effects city maintenance because it make courthouses cheaper to build. But you still have to tech CoL and build the Courthouse to get the benefit.
Click to expand...

It will have effect on any city we build, as civic maintenance increase with each city. It also increases with each population point we grow. Cant be 100% positive on this, but I read somewhere that each city costs about ~3 gold and each citizen costs ~1 gold. This of course is rough estimation, but it shows something: If we use every citizen to work a riverside cottage, we will still get about the same bonus as if working it with FIN.

Someone having the time and willing to run quick test with huge map on Monarch difficulty and Toroidal wrap, settle 5 cities without ORG leader and then with ORG leader and report what the difference is? This may give us idea.

ORG is underestimated in MP because MP is played on Noble. But with Monarch AND Toroidal, this will be completely different game.
 
Egypt is pretty strong choice

@2metra

did you check the "Financial x Organized Battle round" thread posted by me in S&T? It's newest take on the traits.

I have to agree with the consensus that Organized is more medium game improvement, early game favors greatly financial (if you have enough riverside)

Best influence of organized is once you hit High Upkeep civics (Bureau, OR come first to mind), Slavery is cheap, not sure with HR, Rep, but I think one of them is low cost and the other medium cost.
And of course once you hit ability of building courthouse where org leader can 2-pop whip them.

I would be very surprised if the map maker wouldn't make everyone start in riverside area...

btw when we're at it...financial is also good for windmills, watermills improvements, making late game hammer economy strong option.

If we don't choose Financial trait we will probably lock us in more kind of hammer/se/ee economy compared to other teams approach.
Which could be risky strategy once late game kicks in and not sure if in MP you can win by the time MT comes like in SP.
 
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