Leaders

[Ahriman]

Yes, I find Siam is usually powerful, with huge populations.
I think that as Txurce says, the UA is easy for the AI to use, but the UU is also very easy for the AI to use.

The Thai UU is massively superior to, say, the Samurai (because of the Samurai's resource requirement).

 

[Txurce]

I don't understand the nerf to Spain in the 131.2 beta. Apart from not having a sense that it's OP, they now seem to have been shorn of all purpose. In essence they're a civ with two strong Renaissance units that can scout well at the start, so as to find GW's that - if they settle next to them - have double yields. The latter seems pretty lame, in that at best the human will realistically find one GW nearby. So what are they playing for?

I'm curious as to why they lost the already scaled-down 200g for discovery, which of course made sense from a historical and game-play perspective. If it's because of the overall desire to lower gold, it seems unusually punitive. Did you play them and find them OP? (kc bandit's games don't seem broken to me, since his results fall within general good-victory parameters. I played them once recently and found them strong but not unusually so.)

 

[Thalassicus]

"Spain should start out with a free scout just like in rise of nations."

Excellent idea. It doesn't make sense historically, but should enhance the likelihood of finding NW's first, making Spain less hit or miss. This would work well with a consequent adjustment of the discovery bonus.

I was following your suggestion. I posted an update about this on the thread about the topic.

 

[Seek]

400 is incredibly powerful on turn 10, and nearly useless on turn 200. We can't make it scale to game turn, so I don't see a way to balance it in both circumstances.

I think the change is a good one, but agree with Txurce it's somewhat underwhelming as a UA now. How about giving Isa a Settler production bonus or +2 on each city base?

@Txurce kc_bandit's games seem pretty broken to me - multiple culture victories in under 200 turns? Um..

 

[Txurce]

"Adjustment" was rather vague so I took my best guess. Did you want it more in the 100g range... what's your preferred value? I feel 200 on turn 10 from a lucky start near the barrier reef (two 100g tiles) is too powerful. The problem is 100g is also nearly useless in the late game. We can't make it scale to game turn, so it's difficult to balance it in both circumstances.

I think the change is a good one, but agree with Txurce it's somewhat underwhelming as a UA now. How about giving Isa a Settler production bonus or +2 on each city base?

My problem is what Seek points out, except I feel more strongly about it: the Scout now serves very little purpose, and Spain in general is essentially unfocused. This is a big comedown from (for better or worse) an appropriately feast-or-famine explorer civ. I understand your philosophy about reducing extremes, and generally agree with it. Making it 100g (or whatever seems balanced to you in the early game) is the best stopgap fix - the fact that it does little for the late game still leaves it better than nothing at all (and gives Spain focus).

For a more longterm fix that still fits the conquistador stereotype, I was thinking along the lines of Seek's city-gold base boost. I also thought of conquered cities (including puppets) providing not triple gold like Songhai, but increased gpt. This jibes with the UU's - which is when Spain started to rock - and is actually more historically accurate than the more mythic "El Dorado" NW approach. It also completely eliminates the luck factor.

 

[Thalassicus]

Darn thing about forums is sometimes we're writing replies at the same time!

I'd moved my post before refreshing the page and seeing the two new responses.

 

[Sneaks]

Thal, how about Spain getting a combat promotion for every unit that passes next to a natural wonder?

Or a promotion that gives an attack bonus if the enemy civ has a natural wonder in its borders

 

[kc_bandit]

Well, FWIW, I am not playing Spain anymore with the nerf - I just load up an older version if I want to do that!!

I liked the extra Scout, but only because I was on a mission to find every Natural Wonder as early as possible for the Gold. Without that, the Scout doesn't do a whole lot other than maybe popping an extra ruin or two before the AI gets there (or maybe finding a CS first for a whopping extra 15 gold).

Without a UB and underwhelming UU's for anything Tall/Peaceful, she has a really hard time keeping up without that gold boost, IMO. I think maybe reducing the amount to 100 gold would be a good compromise. If you try to do it with extra gold per city then she loses the tall option if she wants to take advantage of that UA.

I don't know, Isabella just seemed so versatile to me and opened up all options depending on starting position, proximity of AI, etc. With that gold, she can choose to emphasize expansion, production, Wonders, conquest, or any other victory condition. I just found it to be fun not having any idea how I would try to win with her - just adapting to the situation added fun/strategy.

Otherwise, it's not a huge deal. There are plenty of other Civs to choose from!

Going to try Bismark for a Conquest win like Thal suggested and then it's on to Egypt for World Wonder hoarding!!

By the way, if you want to fix the gold problem, I don't think Isabella is the primary culprit. AI's buying luxuries or strategic resources with little need for them at full price is the biggest problem - especially so early in the game when gold is exponentially more valuable (like everything else EXCEPT for happiness). It stunts their growth, reduces their ability to enter into RA's, and just generally sets them back in all areas (except for a faster Golden Age - which means close to nothing that early in the game). Having said that, I fully realize that without our abilityto raise gold like this, humans would be in a real bind more often than not. I just wish there was a way to fix it where the AI didn't have to take such a huge hit to allow humans to stay competitive.

I fully expect that the unavailable game code would have to be changed to fix that. If we could, there should be a general market where various luxuries/resources are put up for sale. Like real life, if you can corner the market on a resource, you could demand a higher price (supply/demand).

And why they got rid of science trading is a mystery to me. I assume that humans were just so much better at it that the AI's would be left in the dust.

Oh well . . . on to Bismark and Rameses!!

 

[Thalassicus]

Selling resources to AIs is not a good strategy for early warmongers since we struggle to keep positive happiness. Also, don't underestimate the +4% science boost each lone luxury gives in the early game. We may gain 8 per turn from selling a lone luxury, but we slow our science rate.

 

[kc_bandit]

Selling resources to AIs is not a good strategy for early warmongers since we struggle to keep positive happiness. Also, don't underestimate the +4% science boost each lone luxury gives in the early game. We may gain 8 per turn from selling a lone luxury, but we slow our science rate.

Interesting . . . I guess I need to try the early warmongering out! I assume if you go out and conquer/occupy cities throughout the game, your final score is bonkers with all of that land and population. Once you stabilize, you probably get lots of science and culture as well. I am very curious how that will play out and will try it soon.

I am not as certain about that 4% science in the early game because 4% of 8 or 12 or whatever is just really small - but I get it, 4% is 4% regardless of the underlying beakers/turn. You will research techs 4% faster regardless but I think I generally have plenty of tech in the early game to keep me busy building Wonders and infrastructure.

But I have found that the Great Library is almost an absolute must if you want quick techs. I played a game last night where Persia got the Great Library on turn 45 - the fastest I had ever seen an AI get it. My jaw literally dropped when I saw that the very first Wonder built by an AI was the Great Library (not the Statue of Zeus). I would have loved to see what the heck Darius did to accomplish that feat if I could watch his replay (I am guessing he probably ruin popped Writing). I think I could probably do that if I beelined for it exclusively ignoring Stonehenge/Great Lighthouse/Colossus et al, but Turn 45 is REALLY fast, especially for the AI, isn't it??

 

[mitsho]

For Spain, I agree that the bonus gold on finding Natural Wonders is bad in terms of balancing and everything. But I do like having an explorer civ that gets bonus for finding stuff. I also do think that the early Scout offers some really interesting game play. Thus I propose:

• Double Yields from Natural Wonders: It's interesting, it keeps making Spain go for those and it's in Vanilla!
• Free Scout on Start + Free Caravel on Research of Astronomy (The ocean-going tech). Spain is mostly for intercontinental exploration, so it fits with the theme, also Babylon has a similar bonus with its free Scientist, so it fits the general system)
• Small amount of Gold for finding Natural Wonders and City States (It keeps the exploration focus, it keeps the free gold, but there are more CS and NW so that you can even the money output into a steady stream instead of getting free money on one turn..., otherwise just make it double money from meeting city states, these amounts are balanced on game speed, right?)

I do think that the early scout is valuable as exploring the map and knowing everything is rather important for your other strategy. I do also think that there should be something related to gold in the Unique Ability, it is named Seven Cities of Gold after all, right? (I'm actually not sure what it's named )

 

[Thalassicus]

I really like the idea of a free Caravel for Spain! I think it should be easy to do.

I like the idea of a gold bonus or discovering citystates, but I suspect that would be much harder to accomplish. We have easy ways to detect when players get a new technology, but not when they discover someone.

Update: Oh hey! When looking through the events I discovered Events.NaturalWonderRevealed. This means it should be easy (in theory) to redesign the wonder discovery bonus to whatever we want. Perhaps 50 * era^1.7 gold?

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I don't see an event to detect when players meet, unfortunately. It's possible but would require more time.

 

[mitsho]

Hmm, I guessed so, but the game knows when I meet a city state since I do get the 30 gold or 15 gold for discovering them. It's really a pity we cannot put a modifier onto that money...

But there should be something with money for the Spanish. No upkeep for exploration units/buildings? (scouts, caravels, harbour)? I don't know...

 

[Thalassicus]

The "met new citystate" code appears to be in the game core without an Event to access it. I could still do it, but yeah... it'd take a lot of time. How about this?

Double yields from National Wonders, plus gold [50*era^1.7] when discovered. Starts with a Scout and Trireme.
​

Spain favors coastal starts so this would be quick to change. Caravels are possible, but might step on the toes of the Dutch added in the expansion.

 

[kc_bandit]

The "met new citystate" code appears to be in the game core without an Event to access it. I could still do it, but yeah... it'd take a lot of time. How about this?

Double yields from National Wonders, plus gold [50*era^1.7] when discovered. Starts with a Scout and Trireme.
​

Spain favors coastal starts so this would be quick to change. Caravels are possible, but might step on the toes of the Dutch added in the expansion.

Oh man - a scout and a trireme would be awesome. But I would suggest no warrior if you do that, right?

 

[Txurce]

The free caravel fits wonderfully.

Double yields from NW's doesn't for me. Realistically, Spain is going to build next to one at the most, and only if it's pretty lucky. That doesn't sound either desirable or in keeping with your "less luck" philosophy!

The idea of gold for encountered CS- a one-time deal or, better yet, gpt - really fits Spain's essence, and would be great if it were feasible. This mirrors my proposed gpt from conquered cities (which is even more precisely what Spain did).

Update: Oh hey! When looking through the events I discovered Events.NaturalWonderRevealed. This means it should be easy (in theory) to redesign the wonder discovery bonus to whatever we want. Perhaps 50 * era^1.7 gold?

50 Ancient
150
300
550
800
1000 Modern

The biggest appeal of this is that it keep Spain very close to the vanilla/pre-v131 version. It also makes discovery worthwhile at any stage of the game, but never unbalancing. Maximizing this as much as balance allows (and forgetting the NW yields, which doesn't make much sense for Spain) sounds really good.

 

[Seek]

The free caravel fits wonderfully.

I like the Caravel on Astronomy more than the Trireme at start also.

Double yields from NW's doesn't for me. Realistically, Spain is going to build next to one at the most, and only if it's pretty lucky. That doesn't sound either desirable or in keeping with your "less luck" philosophy!

For me, the most fun thing about Spain is the double NW yields, so I vote for keeping them in, even if it doesn't play much of a roll in most games.

The idea of gold for encountered CS- a one-time deal or, better yet, gpt - really fits Spain's essence, and would be great if it were feasible. This mirrors my proposed gpt from conquered cities (which is even more precisely what Spain did).

The biggest appeal of this is that it keep Spain very close to the vanilla/pre-v131 version. It also makes discovery worthwhile at any stage of the game, but never unbalancing. Maximizing this as much as balance allows [...] sounds really good.

Agreed!

 

[EmperorFool]

I would love to see Spain get a larger bonus if they are the first to discover a NW. I like the free Caravel, too.

 

[Thalassicus]

What would be the best way to explain that in a short sentence? I'm getting sleepy.

 

[Txurce]

What would be the best way to explain that in a short sentence? I'm getting sleepy.

Gold bonus if first to discover a Natural Wonder; free caravel with Astronomy.