Learning Monarch II

[Mantic0re]

Hard drive issues ate my Hannibal game. I'm giving it another shot with a different leader. I'm running BuG in the Custom Assets folder so feel free to play along. Please post in spoiler if your post includes information that I've not already discovered in the posted games.

My goal is to keep turns to 10-15 turns with the hope that forum input helps catch my mistakes before it's too late. Please chime in with advice and critique at any time. I'm eager to learn, although I admit with this game I'm apparently a slow learner.


This time we are Roosevelt. Standard, Pangaea, Normal speed, no huts, no events.

Spoiler :

Thoughts:
SIP. I haven't counted out the turns but if I start a worker and go for BW the timing should be close to perfect. The only alternative is one suggested in the last game, AH then writing. The difference is this map has much more forest and fewer tiles for me to improve without Bronzeworking. That fact alone may make the timing is irrelevant.




PS: For some reason I'm getting an error that my worldbuilder saves are invalid to attach. If anyone knows a quick solution I'll fix it and post WB save.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

This time we are Roosevelt. Standard, Pangaea, Normal speed, no huts, no events.

I use Roses for Foundation most of the time - he's a good choice.

OK, so you've got your screenie - what are the ideas in your head?

ps - I believe WorldBuilder saves have to be compressed to be accepted by the board software. Winzip, Gzip, something like that.

 

[lymond]

you need to zip up WB files

 

[vranasm]

that plains tile is reaaally suspicious... I would probably tech AH (I think US start with fish+agri?)

BW after that.

 

[Mantic0re]

I agree, the plains tile does look suspicious. I thought to get BW and the worker out chopping and go for AH 3rd. I didn't think it all through but my thoughts were that there would be less chance of a worker sitting idle this way. Either way we end up in the same place tech wise after about 35-40turns and my worker will have more than enough to keep him busy. I need to think about it food/production wise before I decide. (now that I really think it through AH is probably better earlier: Improve food first. )


I'll swing the warrior south counter-clockwise. I'm really interested in potential city spots along the river. Nice to have some trade network without all the worker turns for roads (do I still need to tech TW?).


I'm really struggling with low commerce starts and slow tech. I'm debating on Pottery or Writing after AH and BW. The river and green pastures make me think of cottages for Bureaucracy later. I guess that depends partly on if I can find a production / worker pump nearby.

 

[krikav]

I think I would move the warrior south-west, and I also consider moving the settler SW, and depending on what is revealed to move the settler 1N from there (that would be 1W from the starting position).

From this, you lose a forest, but you gain a grassland river tile instead of a riverside plains tile.

You also get two spices.

 

[Mantic0re]

if I understand you correctly you also loose both the corn and grassland cow. I can't imagine a resource that would lead me to move away from my two big food resources in my capital.

 

[jdros13]

Honestly, I couldn't tell you what I would do with Roosevelt until you SIP. If you go AH first and horses don't pop up in the open plains tile I'm pretty sure you will waste worker turns standing around waiting for mining and then bronze working to come in so you can chop some of the forests off and get some mines built. You can farm the open square temporarily if you need to, but that is almost certainly going to have horses, copper or iron so ideally you'll wait for that to show up if possible. If the square 2E 1S is an uncovered hill you'll be able to figure out how many turns of improvements you have available to you before you run out of things for a worker to do without BW.

I would probably not move the Warrior north because of the jungle - you probably won't want to settle there at this point and I can already tell you that settling on the Sugar might be a good spot just from what you can see right now. I would move the Warrior SW and find the coast, looking to see if there are any nearby ocean tiles with food before circling around S.

 

[jdros13]

I would definitely not move away from the cows and corn.

 

[krikav]

if I understand you correctly you also loose both the corn and grassland cow. I can't imagine a resource that would lead me to move away from my two big food resources in my capital.

There are 3 moves involved.

It's the warrior
* Move warriors SW.

Then it's a two-move manuver with the settler.
* Move one SW.
* Then from there, move one N

This lands your settler one west from it's starting position.
Which is in reach of both the corn and the cows.

 

[Mantic0re]

I just realized. I'm Industrious and have an obscene amount of forest to chop.

What do you guys think of Mysticism and chopping Stonehenge?

It takes care of my border pops. I really like the Creative trait. Actually, one of the big reasons for picking Roosevelt was because he's NOT Creative. I feel like border pops are a bane of my game and Creative is my crutch.

^^ I know, good reason not to gamble on Stonehenge. Still interested in hearing others thoughts on it.


Regarding Settler question: With all the forest, moving would mean I lose a turn unless I settle the open plains tile 1SW. I'd like to gain something if I'm gonna be giving up a turn. Mid-Late game food isn't an issue so I don't expect the 1food difference in riverside plain vs riverside grass to matter. I'm not so impressed with the spices. Need Calendar to really work them and I claim them with another city.

 

[krikav]

if you feel that borderpops could be a tricky issue for you, I would certainly not recomend stonehedge, kind of defeats your purpose, right?

Try to place your cities in such a manner, that they can contribute to your empire without the need of a borderpop, it's really easier than one can first believe.

 

[jdros13]

I just realized. I'm Industrious and have an obscene amount of forest to chop.

What do you guys think of Mysticism and chopping Stonehenge?

It takes care of my border pops. I really like the Creative trait. Actually, one of the big reasons for picking Roosevelt was because he's NOT Creative. I feel like border pops are a bane of my game and Creative is my crutch.

^^ I know, good reason not to gamble on Stonehenge. Still interested in hearing others thoughts on it.

If you've never played with Roosevelt, personally I think he is without a doubt one of the strongest leaders...and you can build any wonder you'd like to as long as you prioritize it. If you have stone and marble early enough you can build just about every wonder if that is what you want to do, especially on Monarch.

Personally I like to build a lot of wonders with him, but most of the advice will likely be contrary to that, depending on how much room you have and who you are sharing borders with. If you can stay out of wars though you will only be held up by your tech pace. Organized starts to show its strength on Monarch because the maintenance costs start to go up. It is worth even more as you move up the difficulty ladder.

I'm at work now, but I can probably shadow this tonight or tomorrow if you would like...at least the early game.

 

[krikav]

Regarding Settler question: With all the forest, moving would mean I lose a turn unless I settle the open plains tile 1SW. I'd like to gain something if I'm gonna be giving up a turn. Mid-Late game food isn't an issue so I don't expect the 1food difference in riverside plain vs riverside grass to matter. I'm not so impressed with the spices. Need Calendar to really work them and I claim them with another city.

Yes, you would lose a turn. And it might not be worth it.
A riverside grassland tile works with a cottage.
Can't really put a cottage on a riverside plains hill.
So it is certainly a gain.

And you don't have to wait for callendar to use the spices, the forested one allready gives 2f 1p 1c, thats a free riverside plains farm without having to do anything!
You can also farm the riverside spices for 3f 2c, or put a cottage on it and have the equivalent of a fin-riverside cottage.

Anyway, all this together is what would lead me to move the warrior SW, everything might change depending on what he reveals. =)

 

[jdros13]

if you feel that borderpops could be a tricky issue for you, I would certainly not recomend stonehedge, kind of defeats your purpose, right?

Try to place your cities in such a manner, that they can contribute to your empire without the need of a borderpop, it's really easier than one can first believe.

I may be wrong, but I think part of moving up in levels is learning how to leverage the strengths of the leaders. One of roosevelt's strengths is that he can basically get you an extra creative trait by getting a quick Stonehenge, which makes city placement easier as you expand.

Personally I like to just stack up GPP's by building wonders with him so I don't have to run a bunch of specialists to generate early great people. To me this maximizes his early game advantages - and his UU and UB are so late that you really need to do this to gain an advantage.

 

[krikav]

I may be wrong, but I think part of moving up in levels is learning how to leverage the strengths of the leaders. One of roosevelt's strengths is that he can basically get you an extra creative trait by getting a quick Stonehenge, which makes city placement easier as you expand.

You are certainly right.
However...

I'm not sure that "easier" is what Mantic0re is pursuing with his "Learning Monarch" threads.

 

[krikav]

I would say that this could be a wonderfull resource for you, going through this game:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=420153
An excellent guide made by VoU.
It's specifically designed for players on Noble, but I think that it is highly relevant for players of all level.

Fitting enough, he is playing Rosevelt in the guide.

 

[jdros13]

Yes, you would lose a turn. And it might not be worth it.
A riverside grassland tile works with a cottage.
Can't really put a cottage on a riverside plains hill.
So it is certainly a gain.

And you don't have to wait for callendar to use the spices, the forested one allready gives 2f 1p 1c, thats a free riverside plains farm without having to do anything!
You can also farm the riverside spices for 3f 2c, or put a cottage on it and have the equivalent of a fin-riverside cottage.

Anyway, all this together is what would lead me to move the warrior SW, everything might change depending on what he reveals. =)

I wouldn't build a single cottage with Roosevelt personally, at least not in the capital in the early game if you have enough hammers. Early game farms and moving to some watermills later in the game when they become viable.

I can't really tell what is on the edges on this computer (picture is too small), but I see 2 hills obviously that he will work. The empty plains tile will almost certainly be hammer rich as well and will therefore be food poor. I also think the tile 2E 1S is a hill of some kind and one or two of the tiles 2S might be hills. After Civil Service your corn will be worth +4 and your cows will be worth +2 - if you are going to work the hills (which with this leader you should) you are going to need more food to grow.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Thoughts:
SIP. I haven't counted out the turns but if I start a worker and go for BW the timing should be close to perfect. The only alternative is one suggested in the last game, AH then writing. The difference is this map has much more forest and fewer tiles for me to improve without Bronzeworking. That fact alone may make the timing is irrelevant.

My feeling is that you need to drive in more deeply here.

SIP is fine.

The capital appears to be low production right now - you can revise that evaluation later if an interesting strategic resource pops up on that blank SW tile. But for the moment, you're looking at 1 from the capital, 2 from the cows, and 6 from the green hills (squinty vision is failing me - is that a fogged hill to the SE? that would help).

That's not a lot. On the other hand, you've got trees, which is roughly 5 hammers per turn per worker while supplies last. So you should be thinking about converting those trees into a snowballing advantage.

Possible lines: an extra worker early, an extra settler early, a wonder, an early library....

R's natural wonder is probably the Lighthouse, but that's not a very strong choice on Pangaea anyway. Stonehenge goes pretty well with a rapid expansion strategy, if you can find a place to slide it in. Playing the Henge into a second city is very strong, when conditions are right.


Poor man's estimator: improved tiles cost 5 worker turns each. AH + Mining + BronzeWorking... the last of these comes in at turn 30. So you need *three* tiles to improve if you don't want the worker to get bored. Or you need to punt AH.

4 turns of 3F tile (12/22) plus two turns on the corn (22/22) puts you at size two before you'll have a second tile ready. So you may want to consider worker->(whip) worker lines.

 

[jdros13]

You are certainly right.
However...

I'm not sure that "easier" is what Mantic0re is pursuing with his "Learning Monarch" threads.

I think part of "Learning Monarch" is learning how to leverage strengths though - if it is about making things artificially difficult then that is a different exercise. To move up anyone needs to learn how to utilize what is available to their civ and leverage those assets.

You certainly don't HAVE to build stonehenge and if you are not going to make a run at the oracle I probably wouldn't bother either. Oracle > Metal Casting is an extremely strong start for this leader though, so it makes a lot of sense...especially with the pretty standard start he has drawn. A Prophet would be a huge help at the start to keep him teching quickly since he doesn't have gold or gems readily available unless he finds some nearby for his 2nd city to work.