Learning Monarch II

[MyOtherName]

Chop takes 4 turns (including movement) @ 20 hammers, right? So you'd be weighing the 6 yield on the pasture against ~5/turn roughly (you have alternative tiles worked, growth, etc to factor also). In this case you're throwing around 3/4 idle turns against ~10 yield, pretty close.

You shouldn't be comparing to the 6 yield pasture, you should be comparing to the 3 yield difference between the pasture and an unimproved tile.

 

[Mylene]

AH/wheel should be best, based on that with only 2 good tiles to improve it's always a waste to not get the cow.
BW cannot make up for it, roading first beats chopping with just 1 worker unless you play some freaky settings like Marathon

Uh..mysticism would be a step back, not learning

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

AH/BW is baaaad. If you can make this work out favorably, let me know, because I am not seeing it. You lose commerce and whipping a worker means previously working unimproved tiles and slowing city #2 or whipping off the corn or cow.

It's not clear how to convert my results to yours, and I was focused on the capitol exclusively, and never moved a unit other than the first worker.

You also made more progress than I did, as I started on the AH->BW line, and found a lot of variations to calculate.

The sexiest result I found - finishing the pasture before the farm - looks like

T15 Worker
T23 Warrior
T27 Warrior
T30 Warrior (size 2/28).
T35 Anarchy
T36 Whip
T37 Settler + chop
T38 Worker
T42 6/26 + 12

I don't think there's any point in looking at variants that don't include a two pop whip at T36

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You shouldn't be comparing to the 6 yield pasture, you should be comparing to the 3 yield difference between the pasture and an unimproved tile.

Chop takes 4 turns (including movement) @ 20 hammers, right? So you'd be weighing the 6 yield on the pasture against ~5/turn roughly (you have alternative tiles worked, growth, etc to factor also). In this case you're throwing around 3/4 idle turns against ~10 yield, pretty close.

hmmmmm

I don't think there's any point in looking at variants that don't include a two pop whip at T36

I'd say that's reaching a bit. I had a 2nd city with its special tile already improved by exactly turn 36. At this point such a rig has more commerce and will finish a 2nd worker maybe a turn behind your outline above, but with 3 special tile improvements set already (don't think 1 worker turn will catch it). After a whip the food lead should be marginal at best.

What are you growing to 4 on? Grass forests? How does that beat just getting a 4 (or 5!) yield tile quite a few turns sooner with a commerce boost?

 

[Mantic0re]

Round 2: T0-T23
Build: Warrior, warrior, worker (incomplete)
Tech: Mining, BW, (revolt immediately), AH queued next(may change).

I tried a play with AH first and my warrior was eaten on T14 by a Panther. No horses in BFC so AH first gives me ~10 idle worker turns which I can't live with.

I replayed from the start with an unfamiliar opener (warrior first). I'm currently size 3, mid-revolt to slavery, and plan to whip the worker ASAP. Worker first may have been a better.

Spoiler :

I've met Montezuma and Pacal on Turn 8 (markers on map). I don't see copper nearby but I can see Pacal's border and another civ (Hannibal i suspect) nearby.


The only food resources visible outside the capital are a Cow (near Pacal's border) and a rice near the jungle and Sugar(?). Both cites are 4 or 5 tiles from the capital. I did notice a Floodplain (or two?) south and west of me but the distance is more than I want right now. Not many food rich resources at this point :-( I'll need to get warriors out to spawnbust quickly or I'll have barb issues south of me.

Idea: I could settle on the nearest Sugar for river traderoutes and to block the orange civ but a border pop is urgent to work the rice and block that area.


I've got AH next but it only lets me improve one tile in the capital and may reveal horses (didn't see any earlier). If I go for the early 2nd city I'll need Mysticism. Not sure on the order there but I suspect Mysticism first. No idea what my next level goals or priorities should be.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ this warrior first opening is strictly terrible. Compare it to the outputs from me or VoU above.

Example:

Spoiler :

The only thing the warrior opening is ahead of there is pop, but that's only because i opt to stagnate to build a settler. Warrior ---> bw is miles behind in production already and it's going to get worse as the 2 openings don't both have the 2 specials improved yet. You're losing ~4 yield every turn until you whip that worker for no pop advantage and a 1 warrior advantage that could already be canceled if the worker opening wants an unnecessary (in single player) fast 2nd warrior.

 

[Mylene]

Tmit and VoU: I think the biggest argument against BW too early should be that on higher diff. it would really hurt your research rate, which is a big concern early on.

I don't see a point in comparing turn 35 to 37, how many hammers are lost etc etc. if we cannot meet the basics of connecting 2 cities + improving the awesome tiles (cow surely is)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Tmit and VoU: I think the biggest argument against BW too early should be that on higher diff. it would really hurt your research rate, which is a big concern early on.

I don't see a point in comparing turn 35 to 37, how many hammers are lost etc etc. if we cannot meet the basics of connecting 2 cities + improving the awesome tiles (cow surely is)

It hurts your research rate on all difficulties. High ones just penalize you more for your mistakes.

But yes, we have a serious case of "missing basics" here. That doesn't bother me much, but ignoring the entire discussion and doing something overtly terrible in the face of all advice given is pretty grating. I don't know how someone can expect to improve in a thread like this if their play doesn't even remotely reflect advice given.

Basically, if I'm in manticores shoes, I'm doing one of the following things:

1. Carefully reading the numbers/examples provided by other players
2. Disagreeing with it and running #'s or attempt iterations that show a different opening is actually better.

Grinding the start to optimize it if necessary. PRACTICE the good moves. Learn them. Players can NOT improve if they ignore good play, do not attempt to correct mistakes, and ignore advice. Falling behind 100's of yield in the first 50 turns is painful, it carries over into the kinds of positions that aren't winnable against other players or high levels.

 

[Mylene]

I was waiting for you to comment on the warrior opening
It surely is funny ~~

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'd say that's reaching a bit.

I'd say you are misreading. My position is that if you aren't going to fire off a 2 pop whip on T36, then researching BW directly after AH is a complete waste of time.

Well, I suppose it shows you where the copper is, if you haven't already committed to some other location for your second city. Small chips, those.


Tales of the RNG: the first time I tried to repro TMIT's Riceville, my worker ended a turn next to a wounded lion (wasn't moving the other units, so no fog busting or protection).

Reload, worked through the sequence a second time.... and a jungle grew over the rice.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I tried a play with AH first and my warrior was eaten on T14 by a Panther. No horses in BFC so AH first gives me ~10 idle worker turns which I can't live with.

You want to get better? Go back and learn how you can live with.

Best summary I can think of: I would rather delete my initial worker after improving the corn and the cows, than delay it by training three warriors first.

Edit: admittedly, the math may not back me up on that.

 

[vranasm]

I teched AH, then BW.

if you improve cows, corn, farm near lake, you can build settler at size 3 on improved tiles (well that lake farm is...). and then got 3 idle turns with the worker.
I think it's non-issue.

Good thing was I could go improve the horses in city 2 and you don't even need TW for connecting the horses btw (which should be obvious right after AH if you scout right)!

If you settle 1NW of horses, you're insta connected to capital and horses are riverside

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^wheel still shaves travel turns and while building workers/settlers a farm is 3 yield...comparable to just about every forest tile you will see.

I doubt that can beat AH + wheel or VoU's 2 pop whip...but feel free to give exact #'s, screen shots, etc.

 

[vranasm]

^wheel still shaves travel turns and while building workers/settlers a farm is 3 yield...comparable to just about every forest tile you will see.

I doubt that can beat AH + wheel or VoU's 2 pop whip...but feel free to give exact #'s, screen shots, etc.

not sure why you kill OP with such deep math.

Remember - good strategy can shave you 100's of turns. Good micro can shave you max 10's of turns.
Even in SGOTM the team with better strategy will beat the team with better MM.

All of this math and bumble about losing worker turns led to only 1 thing... the OP started the game with 3 warriors, which all of us could agree was not optimal at all.

Maybe the start I layed down was suboptimal in matter of 2-3 difference in turns, but has 0 impact on the game aside some weird competition (we start to run competition while giving advice for players on Monarch? really?).

What should be obvious to anyone attempting Monarch from start is this:
1) you need AH
2) you need BW before commerce
3) you will need commerce either from pottery or writing since there is no natural (I chose pottery due to the number of riverside grassland tiles).

That should be your gameplan.

 

[MyOtherName]

I took a stab at the three tech openings.

Bronze Working -> Animal Husbandry -> Wheel
Turn 39 summary:
Washington - Size 2   9/24 food  4/15 warrior
New York   - Size 1  12/24 food  4/15 warrior
2 workers, 4 warriors
Cow, Rice, Corn improved
5 Forests chopped
1 turn pre-mine of riverside grassland hill
1 turn pre-irrigate of lakeside grassland

Animal Husbandry -> Bronze Working -> Wheel
Turn 39 summary
Washington - Size 2   3/24 food  0/15 warrior  3 overflow hammers
New York   - Size 1   0/24 food  0/15 warrior
2 workers, 3 warriors
Cow, Corn improved.
Worker #1 does 1 turn on rice farm.
Worker #2 on forest.
0 forests chopped
2 turns of pre-chop
6 bonus commerce from irrigated riverside plains.

Animal Husbandry -> Wheel -> Bronze Working
Turn 39 summary: 
Washington - Size 3   4/26 food  7/15 warrior  33/60 worker
New York   - Size 2   2/24 food  7/15 warrior
1 workers, 2 warriors
Cow, corn, rice improved.
2 turns irrigation on lakeside grass
Road connection
14 bonus commerce from trade routes
Worker done in 3. Bronze Working in 3 or 4, depending on AI research.

Some particular things to note are:

• The AH -> BW plan gets a lot of early warriors that can scout / fogbust the surrounding area. The AH -> Wheel plan, on the other hand, is quite deprived due to building the settler before the second warrior.
• All options get the commerce bonus if we settle along the river. (e.g. 4N 1W)
• The BW first plan could be putting those hammers towards another quick settler (or worker) instead of extra warriors
• AH -> BW, I think, will also get city 3 faster than the AH -> Wheel plan
• AH -> Wheel will also be late mining those wonderful grassland hills.

With these points taken under consideration, AH -> Wheel doesn't feel like it's very good at all, unless you have a very commerce-heavy plan in mind. I feel like it's going to start falling behind soon because due to a combination of a weaker Washington (no mines on those wonderful grassland hills!) and delayed continued expansion.


The build orders I used were:

Spoiler :

BW -> AH plan

Turn  0 : Start worker, Start mining
Turn  8 : Mining done, Start bronze working
Turn 15 : Worker done, Irrigate corn. Start warrior.
Turn 21 : Size 2, switch warrior to worker. 1 turn pre-irrigate of lakeside grass
Turn 23 : Bronze working done, start animal husbandry. Anarchy! Worker starts chopping
Turn 26 : Whip worker.
Turn 27 : Start settler. Second worker moves to forest for chopping.
Turn 33 : Settler done, heads 3E 1S, start warrior.
Turn 34 : Worker #1 heads towards rice. Warrior done, start warrior. (3 hammers wasted)
Turn 35 : New York founded. 1 turn pre-mine. Rice farm started. Both cities start warriors


AH -> BW plan

Turn  0 : Start worker, start animal husbandry
Turn 13 : Animal husbadry finished, start mining.
Turn 15 : Worker done, start warrior. Farm corn.
Turn 20 : Farm done, start pasture. Mining done, start bronze working.
Turn 24 : Send worker towards riverside plains.
Turn 25 : Size 3. Spend 1 turn working grass forest hill
Turn 26 : Warrior done. Start warrior. Switch to grass forest.
Turn 29 : Size 4. Warrior done, start settler. Plains tile irrigated. (+1 commerce!)
Turn 30 : Send worker to lakeside grass to farm.
Turn 33 : Switch from settler to worker.
Turn 35 : Bronze working done, start wheel. Anarchy!
Turn 36 : Whip settler (2 pop). Send worker to pre-chop 1E of New York.
Turn 37 : Settler done. Resume worker. Send settler to 3E 1S.
Turn 39 : Worker done, start warrior. New York founded, start warrior.

AH -> Wheel -> BW

Turn  0 : Start worker, start animal husbandry
Turn 13 : Animal husbadry finished, start wheel.
Turn 15 : Worker done, start warrior. Farm corn. (then cow)
Turn 21 : Size 2. Switch to settler.
Turn 22 : Wheel done. Start mining.
Turn 24 : Send worker to start road from corn to New York.
Turn 29 : Mining done, start bronze working.
Turn 32 : Settler done. Foudn New York, start 2 warriors. Farm rice. 0% research.
Turn 33 : 100% research.
Turn 34 : Warrior done, start warrior
Turn 37 : Send worker to farm lakeside grass.
Turn 38 : Worker done, start warrior. Finish farming lakeside grass.

 

[vranasm]

btw there is one other very interesting gamble and that is ah->writing-->bw and chop out the library ;-)

but since there is no ivory around I don't think it's worth to hunt for early construction, but can help with HA date (maybe).

 

[MyOtherName]

It also strikes me that there is always the classic "grow to size 5 then churn out settlers" option. Chopping out one worker, on turn 39 you can be size 5 and working the corn farm, cow pasture, and 2 grassland hills, and have 4 warriors, and a settler in 5 turns -- and you don't have to choose your second city site before you've scouted the terrain. (with knowledge of both bronze working and animal husbandry to help evaluate it) Does nobody do that anymore?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I went through an embarrassing number of iterations without thinking of farming either of those cleared tiles.

 

[vranasm]

It also strikes me that there is always the classic "grow to size 5 then churn out settlers" option. Chopping out one worker, on turn 39 you can be size 5 and working the corn farm, cow pasture, and 2 grassland hills, and have 4 warriors, and a settler in 5 turns -- and you don't have to choose your second city site before you've scouted the terrain. (with knowledge of both bronze working and animal husbandry to help evaluate it) Does nobody do that anymore?

on pangea is generally better to go at size 3 to get that spot .

granted this map doesn't have that great spots.
If you go circular it is plenty of scouting (you have around 30 turns of scouting before settler finished, maybe even more)
I sometimes go even with settler size 2 (if there is some AI really close and I have 2 high output tiles - for example 2 wet corn)

 

[MyOtherName]

on pangea is generally better to go at size 3 to get that spot .

granted this map doesn't have that great spots.

And that's part of the point -- Washington's pretty good, there's enough food to grow quickly to size 5, and there's nothing on this map that screams "SETTLE ME NOW!!1!1" Opening BW-first, I think I'd rather improve Washington's terrain rather than hurry to get New York out early, and then churn out several settlers/workers in rapid succession.

Although, I really should test the options. After all, TMIT's location for New York will eventually be able to whip a worker every 10 turns. (I confess I found the choice a little odd -- I'm curious as to his reasoning)

If you go circular it is plenty of scouting (you have around 30 turns of scouting before settler finished, maybe even more)

I think, maybe, we have different ideas of how much scouting is "plenty" versus "passable". (and, of course, the quality of single-warrior scouting drops dramatically if you have a bad run-in with a lion)

I sometimes go even with settler size 2 (if there is some AI really close and I have 2 high output tiles - for example 2 wet corn)

I sometimes do too. It depends greatly on the game situation.