Learning Monarch II

[krikav]

I'll add a bonus point for trying a unorthodox opening (warrior first).
I'll give you a gold star if you never do it again!!

I have still to find a single situation where warrior first is a good choice...
Perhaps if you are costal, but lack fishing?

 

[coanda]

I'll add a bonus point for trying a unorthodox opening (warrior first).
I'll give you a gold star if you never do it again!!

I have still to find a single situation where warrior first is a good choice...
Perhaps if you are costal, but lack fishing?

Multiplayer on a cramped map when you start with Hunting is one. Single-player below Monarch for a warrior rush is another. Single-player on a map where worker-steals are easy and reliable is a third. A 2H capital tile surrounded by a lot of forest and some AH resources as Isabella of Spain would be a fourth (otherwise you finish worker T10, then he gets to sit around bored for a long time waiting for BW or AH).

There are probably other situations where it's arguable, but all of the above four I consider clear-cut cases where warrior-first is the right move.

 

[jdros13]

Quick note after comparing saves.

Looked at vranasm's save in comparison to mine since they are both in basically the same spot. I think his is a little stronger than mine, but I do have a (long winded) comment.

Spoiler :

We played it completely differently but are both in a winning position. I utilized the industrial trait to build 4 wonders and have a 6 city civ while he went with a horse archer rush that has made him bigger but also in a more difficult spot to manage for someone learning to play on monarch. I know the feeling having only played for less than a year now.

We are teching at basically the same rate (I'm slightly higher for now) at 100% science, but I'm running at a much lower deficit than he is, so my tech rate is actually faster. He has eliminated threats, but a horse archer rush is not simple to do, especially as you move up in difficulty. It is easy to learn how not to wind up in an early war by protecting your borders and making sure you are not the most hated civ which is the part of the game that is always ignored by players going up the ladder.

I would expect that vran's position will probably result in an earlier conquest win, but I also think the op has no shot at duplicating it. All the math is great and I'll take your word for it it that it is right, but judging from what the op did with his start all that math is going right over his head.

This is a start that requires almost no roads because of the rivers, but you guys are teching wheel early. It would be more beneficial in my mind to learn how to connect cities and share resources with almost no roads. Reduces worker turns needed and should allow more improved tiles with fewer workers required.

Learning monarch for a newer player isn't about learning how to win a conquest in 1300ad, at least not in my opinion. That stuff actually slowed me down a few months ago. Most of the guys posting in the thread know the game far better than I would ever want to, but if you just throw a bunch of math out there and don't actually teach the game mechanics people get stuck as soon as the BC rush stops working.

I went past lib and taj in my game last night and I'm probably going to do the same with vran's later to see how much better his gets from his position than I was able to accomplish. I think it might be significantly better. It is almost certainly going to be a lot of work though, and I can't imagine that is going to help someone that is warrior spamming at the start.

 

[Mantic0re]

What should be obvious to anyone attempting Monarch from start is this:
1) you need AH
2) you need BW before commerce
3) you will need commerce either from pottery or writing since there is no natural (I chose pottery due to the number of riverside grassland tiles).

That should be your gameplan.

Yep, that's really all I have at this point.

I have both the AH, BW, worker first save, and the BW warrior first save to chew on (up to turn 36). I've teched both AH and BW and have scouted my surroundings. The results are pretty disappointing. Southern horses have no food, and my other nearby food resources (Western Rice and Northern Rice) are choked by jungle. Given this situation I am not excited by the rush for a second city. I simply have no idea what to do with a settler once I get him.


Consequently, I don't really see a big difference in the two starts (Save games attached; A is AH worker start, B is BW warrior start). Same tech picture, 1worker1warrior(AH first) vs 2worker1warrior(Warrior first) because all those warriors were eaten by panthers on T36, 1 pop difference in city size. Settler in queue (with no target site). 3turns vs 8turns (+2xchop option) on settler.


I initially thought to settle 1N of the southern horses as jungle tiles aren't nearby but I really don't like a city without a food resource. Moving 1NW gives me FP but puts me on the wrong river for trade I believe.


What about the tile 1NW of of my capitals Cows. It gets river traderoutes. Can steal capitals food (a popular move from higher level players). After it develops some it will claim the rice and can work two Calendar resources.


It would help me to evaluate these positions if I had a better idea what metric is used. Do we compare the date City2 is founded? or is it total hammers accumulated? Or food + hammers??


Both saves have the Wheel queued thinking to get Pottery for cottages. Then maybe Writing. I'm worried about the lack of commerce.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

All of this math and bumble about losing worker turns led to only 1 thing... the OP started the game with 3 warriors, which all of us could agree was not optimal at all.

Wrong. The player chose to avoid worker 1st. Why would anyone sensible read the micro iterations, and then decide to do something completely different? Sorry, but that line of thinking is nonsense...we didn't cause him to go 3x warriors. He did so against our advice.

Consequently, I don't really see a big difference in the two starts

It's really painful to read this. Doubly so because the reasons have already been stated. It's so bad that in a MP situation with ~6 tiles between cap BFC and the same tile spread someone might actually hit you with a chariot before you could build one! THAT's the kind of production difference we're observing here.

If you don't believe us add up the total and produced by each save.

 

[Mantic0re]

I know this is frustrating TMIT, but Vran's right. The whole misfire was based on an attempt on my part to minimize idle worker turns. In doing so, I commited the first cardinal sin and worked unimproved tiles.

You're understanding of the game is light years ahead of my own. I believe you 100% when you (and the rest of the forum) tells me Warrior first is terrible. But I need to understand it in the same way you do, which means I'll do as you suggest and add up all the total food/hammers collect in the first 36 turns for each save and compare. In your frustration, please don't stop commenting or providing criticism. I've simply have not done my homework yet. I'm still a freshman undergrad where anyone who wins on Deity has dual Ph.D's. We almost don't speak the same language, but I hope to learn yours

 

[dr_s]

I know this is frustrating TMIT, but Vran's right. The whole misfire was based on an attempt on my part to minimize idle worker turns.

By building three warriors before your first worker, you greatly increased the number of idle worker turns. Doesn't matter if the workers are in the build queue or standing on a tile, they're still idle.

Edit: Here's how I think of Civ: Mediocre players know that they should optimize. Good players know how to optimize. Great players know what to optimize. Optimizing the wrong thing is just as bad, if not worse, than not optimizing at all.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I know this is frustrating TMIT, but Vran's right. The whole misfire was based on an attempt on my part to minimize idle worker turns. In doing so, I commited the first cardinal sin and worked unimproved tiles.

It's just silly though. A heavy point in the discussion was whether the cost of having idle worker turns was worth the improvement (cow) sooner. There is a reason not one person so much as mentioned avoiding the corn also!

Try to get the most total yield early on that you can. Eventually you'll run into problems where you need to juggle commerce to reach important techs in time but overall improved tiles still win, and higher yield > less yield on individual ones.

 

[King George IV]

Eventually you'll run into problems where you need to juggle commerce to reach important techs in time but overall improved tiles still win, and higher yield > less yield on individual ones.[/QUOTE]

Could you go into detail on this. I'm just starting to understand this concept of the game.

Do you mean turning the slider down and running merchants (while working specific tiles) a certain times so you can build up wealth and then run research at 100 percent while running scientists and losing money?

I've found this and getting AI's to fight each other is kind of complicated.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^

No, I mean the evaluation of slowing down expansion so you can reach key techs in time. Binary research just makes that process more efficient. Monarch maintenance is different from higher and lower levels though obviously, so this evaluation changes by difficulty. One can get away with throwing down 6+ cities on noble when 3-4 would put you in trouble on deity unless you manage commerce.

 

[vranasm]

@jdros

Spoiler :

I don't think that if this map would be Immortal you could build the number of wonders you did.

We generally warn people from rushes on higher difficulty, especially those 1500 BC rushes, but there are some conditions that say such rush is not so hot.

On this particular map I think going HA rush is best option. You just can't go anywhere without rushing at least 1 AI. There is just no good/great land, there is not enough of the land (you're boxed in by 2 AI's from sides and WvO from north - on monarch he kind of collapsed at first, on Immortal he wouldn't), the south looks like tundra (didn't scout there)
Granted I rushed 2 AI's on Monarch, I don't think I would do the same on Immortal, but at least 1 feels mandatory.

 

[jdros13]

@vranasm

Spoiler :

Probably not on Immortal...but probably would on Emperor.

I wanted to play it differently just to use the traits and I was glad that you posted a save so different from mine. HA rush is fine, especially on Monarch, but I personally didn't think it was absolutely necessary for me and had some risk. Played more diplomacy. I tend not to play for the earliest win or highest score though and play more to make sure I win what I start. Sometimes being safe is better in that case. I'm still going to win this game early, I'm just using curs and cavs instead of HAs and I've given myself a bigger window to use them (the only thing that might slow me down is if I don't get control of the AP, but I'll probably just defy at this point anyway).

My comments weren't so much directed at you but rather the tone of the thread - most of the players who are trying to learn Monarch don't need and don't want all the math. They need basics like "make sure your workers have something to do" (initial tech path to ensure that happens) and "make sure you have a plan" and some examples of what a plan might be. They don't need to know what the optimal start is because the 1 or 2 turn difference early doesn't matter for them - it only really matters for the guys who are playing on Deity and sometimes Immortal. We actually demonstrated 2 different plans that worked on the same map and found us both in a similar tech situation at the same time in the game and I am pretty sure my start wasn't perfect, especially since I didn't get copper access by going BW before AH.

I wound up not playing yesterday but I'll probably finish my game today and I'll try to do a write up if I have time today.

To the OP - now that you've seen a couple of starts, the best advice I could give you is to come up with a goal / plan / whatever you want to call it that you could accomplish by 1AD and play either this opening or several different openings figuring out how to accomplish that goal. You should probably win or lose games at this level during that time anyway.

 

[jdros13]

By building three warriors before your first worker, you greatly increased the number of idle worker turns. Doesn't matter if the workers are in the build queue or standing on a tile, they're still idle.

Edit: Here's how I think of Civ: Mediocre players know that they should optimize. Good players know how to optimize. Great players know what to optimize. Optimizing the wrong thing is just as bad, if not worse, than not optimizing at all.

This is something that gets missed by a lot of people. Let's say that for whatever reason you want to get a setter out really early. In any case I can think of you will spend fewer TOTAL turns producing a worker, followed by a warrior, followed by a settler.

You will get the settler out faster however by building a settler first, followed by a worker, followed by a warrior. You will take much longer to get those 3 units out and there are lots of reasons why this is not a good idea, but if the goal is to get the fastest settler for whatever reason and that is your first goal, you have to include all the turns you spend building the worker and the warrior first as "turns spent" building that settler.

That is an extreme example that I would not recommend, but in a high seafood start for example, especially if you don't have many worker techs with a particular civ (and you start with fishing) building a settler before you build your first worker (after 1 or 2 workboats) might actually make some sense.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ Yes "fastest initial settler" would dictate building the settler right away. Setting your goal is important and setting the wrong one can really end poorly.

 

[coanda]

^ Yes "fastest initial settler" would dictate building the settler right away. Setting your goal is important and setting the wrong one can really end poorly.

To raise a somewhat pendantic exception... an EXP leader (not Joao) and a plains-forest-hill, plus starting with Mining (and as India on the higher difficulties where BW costs more), will get the settler as fast or faster with worker-first and three chops.

 

[pigswill]

Had a go at the start up to T36.

Spoiler :

Techwise AH,mining, BW, got BW T36.
Buildwise worker, warrior*2 to pop 4, switched to settler, due in 2 turns.
Worker spent a few turns hanging around but I wasn't sure of the value of delaying BW which is a key tech on this start.
Managed reasonable exploration, found Buddhist Monte to the west and Hindu Pacal to the east. Looks likely to get squeezed between.
Strategically that means war. By the time one gets chariots or axes it'll probably be too late to rush so plan B is to rex then go for later rush (HA if you're clever or wait for cuirassiers if you ain't).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ This isn't deity. "too late to rush" with those units my foot .

 

[Mantic0re]

I'm working from the T36 worker first save posted earlier. This Round is about 50 turns and ends with a DoW. I don't particular like this but I don't feel like there is an option. If I don't war I'm expecting a lingering death.

Spoiler :

I finished the Wheel and before pottery was finished I could see the borders of 3 AI's withing my borders viewing range (well almost, Pacal is so close it doesn't matter).

With only one military resource and limited room (and everyone's favorite neighbor) I didn't seem to have much choice. After Pottery: Hunting, Archery, HBR. Steal cows from the capital to grow onto cottages quickly. I work the wine at a stagnant pop3 horse city and riverside hills in the cap for every spare commerce point.


2nd city claimed the horses (not happy with the spot but it was an early city for trade commerce and secured the resource). My 3rd city was settled NW to share cows and riverside grasslands for cottages. (First attempt I settled away from willem and learned that you have to really push toward Creative civ's; He settled in a way that destroyed my commerce income and research capacity) ~10ish turns from HBR I realized one more city would completely block Willem (at this point he only had 2 cities) so I chopped a settler and settled my fourth city near the copper and rice.


In my experiences, Pacal is only a threat if he has room to expand which he doesn't. He's only built 2-3 cities at this point. He also has a UU that I'm not excited to tackle with HA's. Willem has only 2 cities and is either really boxed in or wonderspamming (he can wait till later). I'm really worried about Monte. In every game I've met him, he's been a decent techer and DOW's me every time. He's close and leading the field with score and city count. With this in mind it seems I don't really have much of a choice for my war target. I don't look forward to this war as I expect it to be a little late and he's pretty solid at war from what I've seen.

BuG scoreboard tells me that he has been plotting war for ~8 turns now but I've not seen any stacks on my border. Victoria was his worst enemy briefly. I debated waiting a turn or two in hopes that he would DoW on her but decided that this was a war of necessity and earlier is probably better.


After HBR, it's Writing (slider off, I'm using all my pop on whips and hammer tiles anyway) and a chop/whip fest for HA's. I put a barracks in the capital and the 3rd city (Not sure it was worth it, but it has some hills and I can work in some farms so it's production looked to beat the horses town). All cities (except the young 4th copper rice city) have granaries and are whipping HA every time that button lights up.

The screenshots and posted save are from the Turn after DOW(turn 85 iirc). I managed to take a city (which I decide to keep for the FP's and the iron mine in the picture). My initial stack was 5 HA, the defending archer was joined by a magical Jaguar. I lost one HA taking the city.

Questions:

Spoiler :

1. How bad is turn 85 (850bc) for a HA DoW? too late? too few units to start? Doomed or ok?

2. Was the decision to keep his city a mistake?

3. Could I afford to go for Writing before HBR? Should I turn my slider up and push for writing now? (I have OB with Vicky) I expect to need writing and Alphabet fairly quickly as my tech rate will drop.

4. Was settling City 4 now a good or bad decision? I debated this point and probably would not have settled if this city didn't block willem.

5. For about 8-10 turns I had 5 workers for 3 cities (with max overlap on two). This felt like I was overbuilding but I did so because I wanted to maximize my chop rate for faster units. I was able to pre-chop a lot of forest but wonder if 1 less worker (and maybe another barracks or chariot) would have been better. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Mantic0re]

@ pigswill

Problem is that REX will ruin your tech rate so you may not ever really get the techs you need before you need them. Monte WILL attack. I'd rather not face him at a tech disadvantage.

If there is another option I'm all ears but in this situation I really feel like my back is against the wall and the only way out is a military offensive. I'd rather not use warriors and archers in this role which means chariots, axes, HA, or swords (not sure about this one).

Chariots might work but I've not had good luck with them.

 

[ecuwins]

Without having looked at any spoilers yet, I decided to give this a go.

Late Horse Archer rush

Spoiler :

SiP worker first. Mining > BW > AH > Myst > Wheel > Pottery > HBR > Hunting > Archery > Writing > Aesthetics

About the time I was ready, Monty declared on WillyO. I sent my stack through Willy's land towards Monty's copper before declaring myself. I leave a couple straggling HAs behind to interdict any crap south of the lake.

A few turns later, boom. Hindu holy city and ToA to boot.