Learning Monarch II

[TheMeInTeam]

You are certainly right.
However...

I'm not sure that "easier" is what Mantic0re is pursuing with his "Learning Monarch" threads.

No, he is wrong. Moving up in levels does not primarily entail "leveraging a leader", but rather making the proper choices based on the options available to you on a given map. Confusing the two can lead to losses outright. Traits and uniques only matter insofar as they offer higher returns on certain options, possibly making them best where they otherwise would not be best. Too often, however, people pick something like "build x wonder" on the sole basis of being industrious rather than weighing that against other options, and wind up screwing themselves.

Also, research AH right away. You could tell your starting worker to chop forever and you'd still never match the total output of working that cow with a pasture. BW should follow pretty soon after however as that is a lot of forest.

 

[krikav]

No, he is wrong.

Grr, I was playing for a diplomacy bonus with the "you are probably right", and look what you have done now!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Grr, I was playing for a diplomacy bonus with the "you are probably right", and look what you have done now!

I'm too to be concerned with such trivialities as this strange "diplomacy" you mention .

Well, that and I actually prefer good advice to bad advice also .

 

[jdros13]

Also, research AH right away. You could tell your starting worker to chop forever and you'd still never match the total output of working that cow with a pasture. BW should follow pretty soon after however as that is a lot of forest.

You probably already know the math on this (I don't) but if he goes AH first / worker first and there isn't horse in the empty square, won't he have quite a few idle settler turns before he gets Bronze Working?

If that is a naked hill 2E 1S then I think he'd be ok, but I can't tell that until he settles. I know some are really good at seeing through the edge of the fog.

 

[jdros13]

I'm too to be concerned with such trivialities as this strange "diplomacy" you mention .

Well, that and I actually prefer good advice to bad advice also .

There is no way you will move up in level without leveraging the traits of your leaders. That doesn't mean you have to wonderspam with Roosevelt, but it does mean you need to consider the benefits of all the early wonders, the path that you want to take and realize that you probably have an advantage over most if not all your opponents in this one area to start the game.

I'm certainly not a deity player and I'm sure you are far more advanced in Civ4 than I could ever dream of being. But "playing the map" which is what you are saying (making the proper choices based on the options available to you on a given map) includes "playing your leader" and how they fit that map.

Hell, you can't even tell much of anything from the initial screenshot other than it is perfectly acceptable to SIP and you have a lot of forest to chop. The decision at this point is simply (in my mind) Animal Husbandry or Mining and I personally couldn't even make that decision until I actually settled and saw exactly what was in the fog. All just speculation at this point since you don't know what the map has to offer (and you can work quickly) other than corn, cow, trees.

But those trees offer a lot of hammers and you get the best discount for those hammers on wonders...so you should be considering a path which will make those trees worth as much as possible, because that is the strength of your leader.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

You probably already know the math on this (I don't) but if he goes AH first / worker first and there isn't horse in the empty square, won't he have quite a few idle settler turns before he gets Bronze Working?

Worker turns, but yes you are right. How many turns depends on level, because the beaker costs of the techs change.

What's not clear is whether the worker lag is "worth it".

I think there are three general lines worth considering here (disclaimer: the actual map reveal might change the problem)

1) Mining -> Bronze Working -> AH, and try to snowball the early chopping
2) AH -> Mining -> Bronze Working, with worker lag
3) AH -> Mining -> Wheel? which gives the worker something to do, at the cost of a production hit.

The AH lines are further complicated by the choice at T16 of whether to invest the next 4 turns completing the corn farm (5F), or to instead pasture the cows (4F/2P).

I don't know that anybody has published a good analysis here - most of the discussions I remember are based on first principles.

 

[dr_s]

Going AH first seems clear to me because of the cows. I don't see a few idle worker turns as a problem.

Looking carefully at the save, I see coast directly SE. Could be a lake, but I would guess true coast.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Worker turns, but yes you are right. How many turns depends on level, because the beaker costs of the techs change.

What's not clear is whether the worker lag is "worth it".

I think there are three general lines worth considering here (disclaimer: the actual map reveal might change the problem)

1) Mining -> Bronze Working -> AH, and try to snowball the early chopping
2) AH -> Mining -> Bronze Working, with worker lag
3) AH -> Mining -> Wheel? which gives the worker something to do, at the cost of a production hit.

The AH lines are further complicated by the choice at T16 of whether to invest the next 4 turns completing the corn farm (5F), or to instead pasture the cows (4F/2P).

I don't know that anybody has published a good analysis here - most of the discussions I remember are based on first principles.

Wheel will look better or worse based on exploration. Allowing a swift settler placement on a 2nd city (settler trained @ pop 2, possibly before warrior) with a high yield tile might give the wheel a boost, especially since 2nd city will generally add to research also if it isn't placed far (and with such an opening it really can't be placed far or it dies in transit to animals).

IMO the problem with worrying about worker lag is that the tradeoff is a 6 yield tile, which chopping can't actually match. So, unless in addition to the chopping we are getting strong tile improvements (only options being farms or mines, in other words mines with this cap) I'm not sure that I like such an opening.

If i were playing this in a serious competition I'd just run test save iterations (this is what I did for PBEM 25 on realms beyond) but it at least SEEMS like AH is the superior choice, on the sole basis that you would need to chop nonstop just to match the yield of the cow, or take a break from that and improve 2 mines just to match the yield-over-pop value.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

If i were playing this in a serious competition I'd just run test save iterations (this is what I did for PBEM 25 on realms beyond) but it at least SEEMS like AH is the superior choice, on the sole basis that you would need to chop nonstop just to match the yield of the cow, or take a break from that and improve 2 mines just to match the yield-over-pop value.

Right - but I think we can do better than "seems", if we're willing to thrash out the position once and write the answer down. I may take a swing at this tonight, after Mantic0re posts an update....

 

[Mantic0re]

Wow. This Thread just blew up in my face. This discussion is exactly what I need. I've been drawing circles in the dirt at Prince for years and NEVER put this much thought into a single game, much less the opening.

So many of the suggestions you guys are producing I don't recognize so I can't begin to evaluate my options. I guess I've been going through the motions and smashing space bar for too long. At some point in the future I hope to learn how to leverage...well anything that can be leveraged. Right now I think the focus should be on recognizing and evaluating my options; "reading" the map if you will.

To that end, a more generic game is probably most helpful so I'll pass on a serious push for Stonehenge. I don't know what kind of space I'm working with (with no obvious coast and the nearby jungle I'm assuming I'm roughly in the middle) and if that would really help me. I also think learning how to settle and pop borders is more important for me at this point. Frankly, my reasoning for suggesting it was to soak up the chop hammers since the forests must be cleared for improvements. It never occurred to me to use the chop hammers on another worker but given the amount of chopping I'll be doing it makes a lot of sense.

I've had two games recently where I've had tech troubles with early settler. There are a multitude of errors wrapped up in this that I need to work on but until then; Recency has me a little nervous about using chop hammers for an early settler.

Here's the view after SIP and Warrior 1SW.

Spoiler :

AH --> BW gives us 8 (13AH + 8Mine + 18BW - 15worker - 5corn - 5Cow - 6plains = 39 - 31 = 8) dead worker turns after improving the corn, cows, horse (good assumption I think)
BW first should reduces the 6 (8mine + 18BW - 15worker - 5Corn = 6 ) dead worker turns.
Seems like maybe Warrior first to grow should be considered. We grow to size 2 after 8 turns. The warrior should be completed 3 turns later. This eliminates dead worker turns and enables a whipped worker. (I guess this is what VoU meant in his earlier post about whipped worker, worker.


I'll play this out later tonight and post an update.

 

[jdros13]

I'll be shocked if you don't have metal or horses in at least one of those treeless squares.

I'm assuming you are ok with a shadow since you posted the original save and I was planning to start a new game tonight after finishing the NC game yesterday. I'll probably play to 1AD and while I won't decide until later I will probably start with mining > bw. We can compare notes and hopefully one of the other guys will as well because I would love to see a couple of different approaches to the same map.

Load as a scenario, correct?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Right now I think the focus should be on recognizing and evaluating my options; "reading" the map if you will.

To that end, a more generic game is probably most helpful so I'll pass on a serious push for Stonehenge.

"Be normal" is a totally reasonable approach right now.

AH --> BW gives us 8 (13AH + 8Mine + 18BW....

The number for BW is wrong.

My guess is that you got that number either by looking at the tech cost and your current tech rate, or by hovering over the tech in the tech tree. Either of these methods misses the fact that you get a 20% research bonus by first discovering Mining.

The real cost is going to be 3-4 turns cheaper than that, depending on research overflow and rounding.

Your worker turn counts also look off to me. It should be corn (5), cows (4 - they are half a step away from the corn, so you don't lose a turn when you move, move (1 - both blank tiles are 3 steps away), horse (4 - again, you don't lose a turn taking the last half step).

So your first two tiles are improved at the end of T23, and BW comes at the end of T26/27. So you've got 3 or 4 idle turns, or none.

The turn counting isn't important; the tech costs you become accustomed to with more practice.

 

[jdros13]

So your first two tiles are improved at the end of T23, and BW comes at the end of T26/27. So you've got 3 or 4 idle turns, or none.

Probably close to none...unfortunate there isn't a commerce rich tile to work for a turn or 2 to make sure it would be none.

 

[Mantic0re]

@jdros13: It is definitely ok to shadow. meant to post this with my last one. Please shadow and share. I'll learn more this way. I don't know if it shows as a scenario. I just attached the file from my single player saves folder. I suspect a simple double-click of the attachment will load it. If not, save the attachment somewhere, then load Civ, find the file and load it that way.


@VoU: hmmm. that changes things. My counting pointed me toward warrior and BW first and whipping the Worker as a better move. I didn't consider the differences in growth fully for the worker first scenario. If my wasted turns are really half of predicted and I counted everything completely the difference is much smaller than I anticipated

.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So your first two tiles are improved at the end of T23, and BW comes at the end of T26/27. So you've got 3 or 4 idle turns, or none.

Chop takes 4 turns (including movement) @ 20 hammers, right? So you'd be weighing the 6 yield on the pasture against ~5/turn roughly (you have alternative tiles worked, growth, etc to factor also). In this case you're throwing around 3/4 idle turns against ~10 yield, pretty close.

I'll probably do a few test iterations on this start at some point today because it's not all too uncommon as a start and it wouldn't be a bad heuristic to know for sure.

 

[vranasm]

shadowed a bit to 50 BC.

Spoiler :

what I found more disturbing then the start (which I solved with ah-->bw and few idle turns) is total lack of great city 2 spot.

there are horses nearby with some flood plains.
From the start I knew I will go with bw-->pottery for commerce since there is ton of riverside.

horses made the decision easier and I went for HA rush. wasn't spectacularly quick (got HBR around T75), but attacked east AI in good time.
Now in progress towards monty to west.

Currency, CoL home so no danger of bankrupcy.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

@VoU: hmmm. that changes things. My counting pointed me toward warrior and BW first and whipping the Worker as a better move. I didn't consider the differences in growth fully for the worker first scenario. If my wasted turns are really half of predicted....

They aren't - I flunked Math today. Forgot to add in the cost of Mining - I get 13 + 7 (beaker overflow) + 15 (per-requisite bonus) = T35, where your worker improvements are done at T23 without horse, T28 with.


My head was saying "that looks about right", forgetting that in Foundation I've been playing at Noble....

 

[TheWilltoAct]

No one would be so gutsy as to move North West? We keep our food resources, gain a nice riverside spice and we still have three hills.
Might just be my human tendency to feel safer settling in the revealed area.

 

[jdros13]

played to 50 AD. Don't think this is perfect by any means and I certainly haven't scouted enough - lost 2 warriors to lions which kind of pissed me off to be honest.

Spoiler :

Definitely in a winning position already but I'm curious to see if anyone went with an early rush or was able to expand a little better than I did (I only built 6 cities and I doubt I'll build more than one more to be honest). Probably a post liberalism stampede from this point.


Settled in Place. Started with mining.

3860 - mining in, started on BW. Have discovered I have marble and stone nearby. After the worker came in I farmed the corn, then moved to the hill S of Washington. Wasted one turn waiting for BW before I could chop.

3080 - BW came in. No copper. Started on AH now. I began chopping into a settler while growing on a worker (only put the chops into the settler)

2680 - lost a fortified settler on a grass hill south of the borders to a lion. Hmmm.

2600 - AH comes in. No horse in BFC, but there is some nearby and I decide to found NY there (SW, horse and flood plains basically).

2400 - found NY, discover Mysticism start Wheel. Start building Stonehenge now or next turn

2160 - Stonehenge finishes

2120 - wheel, start Polytheism

1720 - poly, start Priest. Found Boston 3 W of NY on one of the wine tiles

1560 - priest, start Pottery. pretty sure I finished a settler in washington on this turn or the next and started the Oracle

1400 - found Philly next to stone on plains hill south of Boston.

1360 - complete pottery, start masonry

1320 - revolted into slavery. Whipped a granary in Washington somewhere in next 2 turns

1200 - finish oracle > metal casting.

1120 - finish masonry, start writing

925 - finish writing, start aesthetics

800 - great prophet, settled

625 - Pyramids, revolt to representation

525 - Aesthetics finishes, start Literature

450 - founded Atlanta to the east 1S of the gems. can already work the rice as well because of Washington's border pops.

400 - finish lit, start Alpha for one turn on 0% so I can trade for it with Aesthetics

350 - using only Aesthetics, trade for Alpha, Iron Working, Sailing, montheism, hunting then Archery for priesthood on next turn. Start math.

225 - math finishes, start currency. Founded Chicago north of NY on a plains hill somewhere around this time as well. Should eventually take control of both the marble and the iron over here with a little cultural finesse (but might take a little while).

125BC - finish Great Library

75BC - another prophet, settled.

1AD - trade for Monarchy and Meditation, finish currency. Start CoL, although I should really check if anyone else has it because I don't want to found the religion.

screens:

Washington in 50 AD:

Northern part of the "empire"

Southern part

current demographics

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Right - but I think we can do better than "seems", if we're willing to thrash out the position once and write the answer down. I may take a swing at this tonight, after Mantic0re posts an update....

Okay, ran each opening, and put my best results in bold:

1. BW first has 2 idle turns . You improve the corn and can do nothing else in time before chops...

I also whipped a worker @ pop 2 then used them both to chop a settler nonstop and continue nonstop chopping. t36 we have:

Washington @ pop 1 15 food
New York @ pop 1 3 food
2 workers
3 warriors

Pasture and rice farm, however, are not improved.

take 2 on this tech opening i just went worker ---> settler instantly. This is unquestionably worse, as you don't have a 2nd worker t 36 and you have 0 food in cap while at 12/22 in new york. Ugly production as you'll see below it's slower than AH/wheel opening in production .

2. AH/Wheel first looks purty. Worker has enough time to build roads out to 2nd city (for the purposes of this test, new york is just planted 3E 1S of capitol although AH tech discovery might change one's priority for settlement - another argument in favor of leading with that tech) and a settler can found the instant it is produced. t36 you have pop 2 cap + 7 food and pop 1 new york with 9 food. 2nd worker in capitol is 3 turns from being finished. 2 warriors total. We are also +2 commerce on the other opening.

It does trade away some production, but not much as the capitol in part 1 needs to regrow to 2 in order to work the cow, which isn't hooked yet t36 but that is the point where you have AH and can start the pasture. You're down about a warrior in total I'd say.

Take 2 I finished the corn before improving the cow, which is a better play overall IMO as you don't grow with massive food overflow and grow 1t sooner. The cost is the delayed warrior. We can afford that.

With AH/wheel and finish corn, then cow, then road I have:

Washington @ pop 2 14 food
New York @ pop 1 12 food and rice improved
1 worker (2nd worker in 4)
2 warriors

3. AH/BW is baaaad. If you can make this work out favorably, let me know, because I am not seeing it. You lose commerce and whipping a worker means previously working unimproved tiles and slowing city #2 or whipping off the corn or cow.

Overall, if you whip a 2nd worker and chop nonstop, you can come out 1 warrior ahead of the AH/wheel opening roughly (advantage in worker count is offset by a lack of usable improvements just yet, and AH opening has a 2nd worker in time to start chopping by the time you'd pasture/irrigate those tiles). However, those forests are gone for one build and not for the other. Forests can be chopped later. Cow turns, however, are lost if they aren't worked as a pasture.

On top of all this, wheel opens up a way to settle a 2nd city and gain 1 beaker/turn.

I don't see a lot of merit in BW opening here unless you value copper > horse, which is silly given that 1) horse is more common and 2) chariots are at least as good as axes for a rush with non-agg...generally better.

Commerce adds icing.