Leoreth Plays China

[Leoreth]

Here's how China has been going so far.

Spoiler :

I settled Xi'an, Luoyang, Beijing in that order. I prioritised building workers and settlers in Xi'an. In the early Chinese game, food is abundant and cities grow quickly thanks to the UP, and the greatest obstacle is happiness.

Tech order was Alloys for chopping, Property for Despotism, Writing for Taixues. Scientists in Xi'an and Luoyang carried most of the research in the early game. Next Calendar for happiness.

My subsequent priorities were getting the religions, Confucianism spawned without my doing, but I got to Aesthetics first. I made contact with Europe but there weren't many valuable trades, India, Tamils and Persia were more fruitful for that. Buddhism also spread to me, which was mainly bothersome, but nice historically.

Spoiler :

I settled the remaining cities in the order of Fuzhou, Haojing, then a bit later Shanghai and Kunming. Those cities mainly had the job of building Confucian and Taoist temples and not being a drain on the economy. I used Beijing and Xi'an to build missionaries inbetween military units. Luoyang's purpose was to build Dujiangyan and the Grand Canal for obvious reasons, the latter in particular was a big boost to my economy which got me from scraping by to doing well.

As for great people, I used my first great scientist to bulb Mathematics and Philosophy, and then used a great scientist and statesman for the first golden age. That came at a good time to propel me forward in the comparative tech race and build some wonders.

Terracotta Army got built in Beijing and the Great Wall in Xi'an. I have to say that all Chinese wonders really feel useful and I am not just building them for flavour reasons. The wall in particular is a must when three move Oghuz start showing up and threatening your workers everywhere.

Defending the frontier is a neat element to this game that keeps it from being an isolationist builder fest. As soon as Horse Archers show up you have some serious problems, especially because I didn't purposefully prioritise getting Cho-Ko-Nus and therefore had no proper counter to them besides putting Swordsmen in defensible positions and Archers behind walls. Beijing was constantly pillaged (trying to keep that Incense plantation going is difficult in particular) and for the longest time I did not have enough spare troops to take Shenyang, which eventually became my eighth city.

Spoiler :

I completed the first goal in 840 AD, letting Xi'an and Beijing take the cathedrals (Luoyang would have been more optimal and I did have the turns to spare). Shanghai and Kunming were the holdups when it came to getting the temples, but overall it wasn't that close.

Spoiler :

And the second goal in 1120 AD. I was honestly worried a bit about not being first to Compass, the others were a foregone conclusion after that.

Also, as you can see, I moved the capital to Luoyang because I adopted Regulated Trade and wanted to take advantage of the Grand Canal with it. Easily +40 research just from that.

Now, the Mongols are right around the corner and my military isn't that strong. I'll ride out the golden age building units at least in Beijing and Xi'an to prepare, then maybe switch back into Despotism to get more units out if necessary. The nice thing about the Chinese UHV is that after the first two goals, you aren't that constrained anymore and can basically do whatever you want as long as you get the golden ages. So sacrificing some population and commerce isn't the worst thing to endure.

 

[Leoreth]

First attempt at resisting the Mongols involved me refusing the Shenyang flip and getting overrun at Beijing with no defenses left in my remaining cities. Second attempt was accepting the flip, gifting them some techs and giving in to the occasional demands, which got them to Pleased and enabled some resource trades. When they collapsed, I retook Shenyang, and because I had enough units, decided to conquer Korea while I was at it:

Spoiler :

After that, the game mostly consisted of running specialists, and trying to get great people birth and specialist modifiers. I switched to Monasticism and Meritocracy, and prioritised research in the direction of Representation and eventually ended up adopting Egalitarianism, Constitution and Democracy. That also made me the first civ to discover that tech and gave me a free Great Statesman. I also built Civic Squares, which helped a little.

I definitely left some opportunities to optimise on the board. First of all, I should have considered a different tech path to get Scientific Method and/or Economics first for the free great people. But more importantly, while I was running a lot of specialists, I left the selection of specialists mostly up to the AI. This created a few great engineers and scientists too many, while between those and great statesmen at least one other type is needed for the final golden age. So toward the end of the deadline I had to make a hard turn into hiring merchants, priests and artists in the hope that the RNG would land on one of those.

Spoiler :

My golden ages started in 1555 AD and 1757 AD. I did not actually ride out this golden age, so no victory screen. That is in part due to a minor bug I noticed: the golden age triggered by accomplishing two victory goals starts during the turn the second goal is completed (while in the old implementation is was checked and triggered at the start of the turn). That means that if a goal is completed at the end of a turn, the golden age will start and then immediately roll over into the next turn, where you are at 7 turns remaining. That means the golden age goal counts only 7 of these turns.

I am not sure which solution to this I will pick, but I will look into it.

As for the Chinese game itself, as I mentioned above, I think it's fun the way it is, and doesn't need any changes. I was thinking about requiring one more golden age to make the last goal more tense, but I wonder where that would come from. Another great people fueled golden age would require five more great people, and the luck for all of them to be of different types. That seems to much and also hard to control. And I cannot think of any sources for golden ages that would be available to China and not be wildly ahistorical.

 

[Hickman888]

As for the Chinese game itself, as I mentioned above, I think it's fun the way it is, and doesn't need any changes. I was thinking about requiring one more golden age to make the last goal more tense, but I wonder where that would come from. Another great people fueled golden age would require five more great people, and the luck for all of them to be of different types. That seems to much and also hard to control. And I cannot think of any sources for golden ages that would be available to China and not be wildly ahistorical.

Here's an idea: What if we were to introduce a wonder (I don't know enough about Chinese culture to know what that wonder could be), and the effect of this wonder is to increase your golden age length by 25% (2 turns) for every vassal you have. And the 3rd Chinese goal, instead of being "Experience 4 golden ages by 1800 AD", could instead be something like, "Experience 44 turns of golden age by 1800 AD". It would be a fun way to spice up the Chinese golden ages, while also being historical in the sense that China is exerting its influence over other East Asian civilizations.

And what difficulty do you usually play at?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Why did you not subdue the western hill region?

 

[LikeNothing]

Here's an idea: What if we were to introduce a wonder (I don't know enough about Chinese culture to know what that wonder could be)

It could be the Giant Goose Pagoda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Wild_Goose_Pagoda

It could also be the Temple of Heaven, which has about as much to do with Taoism as the Itsukushima Shrine has to do with Buddhism.
The "Temple" part of the name Temple of Heaven is a mistranslation. A better translation would be Heavenly Altar.
It has no business being the Taoist Shrine. No Taoist has ever visited it for any purpose related to Taoism.

For the Taoist Shrine, use Wudang instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Mountains

 

[Leoreth]

Here's an idea: What if we were to introduce a wonder (I don't know enough about Chinese culture to know what that wonder could be), and the effect of this wonder is to increase your golden age length by 25% (2 turns) for every vassal you have. And the 3rd Chinese goal, instead of being "Experience 4 golden ages by 1800 AD", could instead be something like, "Experience 44 turns of golden age by 1800 AD". It would be a fun way to spice up the Chinese golden ages, while also being historical in the sense that China is exerting its influence over other East Asian civilizations.

That seems convoluted, and I don't like custom introducing wonders just to be featured in a goal.

And what difficulty do you usually play at?

Regent.

 

[LikeNothing]

Also, Golden Ages are especially not worth it for China.

Golden Ages boost yield, and can be worth it if your map/stability map is large enough (Russia, USA, France, England, Mongolia, Rome, Greece). China's map is grotesquely shrunken, and probably always will be "for balance purposes".

Golden Ages are temporary, and can be worth it if your playing time (number of turns you are supposed to play) is very short - a mad dash, a burst of glory (Mongolia, any Classical Mediterranean Civ, the Dutch). China has the longest playing time in the game, by design and for historicity.

So Golden Ages for China are shots in your own feet. You are much better off building Academies instead. Still though, it's not as annoying as France being forced to settle Paris.

A less frustratingly self-defeating 3rd UHV for China could be:
Great Unity: Control most of the world's while maintaining at least Cautious relations with every other Civ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Unity

For my general ideas about East Asia, see here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/east-asia-overhaul.669103/

 

[Leoreth]

I don't agree, I found golden ages to be very useful. Academies only add a smattering after you have built them in the most important cities.

 

[1SDANi]

I do really like the idea of a UHV that encourages China's historical tributary relations with their neighbors, though you could argue that the Tributary civic's own mechanics does encourage it up until the completion of the Tech UHV, and I really can't argue against that, it's a solid counterargument.

 

[LikeNothing]

I don't agree, I found golden ages to be very useful. Academies only add a smattering after you have built them in the most important cities.

Yeah, you're right.
I just sentimentally prefer Academies because they don't end. I hate endings.

Please do consider my other East Asia ideas though:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/east-asia-overhaul.669103/

And renaming the Taoist Shrine. Taoism has holy sites, but the Heavenly Altar is not one of them.

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

I don't agree, I found golden ages to be very useful. Academies only add a smattering after you have built them in the most important cities.

Which one's better: Settling Great Scientist or building an Academy with it? I also have the same question for Great Engineers (I always rush wonders with them, don't build manufactories or settle them unless I'm required to).

 

[Leoreth]

I also rarely settle. Manufactory is more valuable over time than rushing a wonder in my opinion. Settling may become worth it if you do it very early on.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

As for the Chinese game itself, as I mentioned above, I think it's fun the way it is, and doesn't need any changes. I was thinking about requiring one more golden age to make the last goal more tense, but I wonder where that would come from. Another great people fueled golden age would require five more great people, and the luck for all of them to be of different types. That seems to much and also hard to control. And I cannot think of any sources for golden ages that would be available to China and not be wildly ahistorical.

It would be a fun way to spice up the Chinese golden ages, while also being historical in the sense that China is exerting its influence over other East Asian civilizations.

That seems convoluted, and I don't like custom introducing wonders just to be featured in a goal.

What about just adding having some number of vassals to the 3rd goal? It makes it a bit harder, represents the influence China had over other nearby civilizations during their peak periods, and avoids adding a convoluted wonder.

 

[Dominus the Mentat]

The only problem I see in China's gameplay is how the dynamic names appear. Basically, you need to control the whole China to the dynastic names show up, which is very ahistorical, since some dynasties, like Zhou, have control only of what is the core in the game. Another example is the Song dynasty, which the name stays even when they reborn after Mongol's conquest.

 

[johnfloyd27]

China is a nation that has had a lot of booms and busts in its long history. Glorious golden ages and the bloodiest civil wars of all time. What if the third goal reflected this by requiring X Golden ages AND Y collapses. So you’re actually incentivized to find ways to push yourself to collapse, but change the collapse mechanic so you always retain at least 1/3 of historical Chinese territory, and then you must regain the whole of what’s traditionally considered “China” to emerge from the collapse, and maybe doing so triggers the next golden age (or gives you a great person to help trigger golden ages while also repeatedly collapsing).

Victory conditions that require you to collapse and rebuild would be a wild new ride for the one civ that’s playable from the dawn to dusk of time.

 

[Cosmos1985]

I see where you're coming from, but it sounds really counter-intuitive to actively try to pursue collapse.

 

[TsarAndreas]

What?! Not fighting the Mongols is an option?!?! How has this never happened to me?

I thought they automatically declared war upon spawning. I never settle in their territory, so I don’t have any cities to offer.

I’ve been playing this game all wrong…

 

[Leoreth]

No, I just got lucky in that game. They are very likely to spawn at war with you. I already made a mental note to handle this differently with the new rise and fall mechanics.

 

[Dracosolon]

There's also a trick to get rid of their invasion.

1) Settle Datong on the Incense early, build culture for extra large Great Wall.
2) A few turns before the Mongol spawn, leave a few 2- units in range of the Karakorum tile.
3) When the Mongols spawn, they tend to send all/most of their troops out of the city where they get stuck in your Great Wall territory.
4) Take Karakorum, killing the civ on the first turn.
5) Either get your units out of the city, or just destroy them.
6) Next turn the Mongols flip and are reborn, but without an invading army.
7) If you're feeling like kicking them while they're down you can take Karakorum again.
8) Wait and make peace.

 

[Leoreth]

That's another thing I want to prevent with the new rules.