Lessons on Epics: Washington

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I've also read on the forums here that that's one big difference between Noble and Monarch, picking a victory condition early and sticking with it.

I play on Prince, but I would argue that you should pick a victory condition and/or a strategy in general and don't necessarily stick with it. At any given point in the game (theoretically every turn but in practice less often) you should ask yourself three questions:

1. What is my plan for winning (both the short term plan and the long range plan)?
2. Why did I choose that plan?
3. Do my plan and my reasons still make sense given what I now know?

If it does still make sense, good. If not, adapt. If you don't even know the answers to the questions, you better figure them out.

 

[uncarved block]

Thanks for the correction, Dr. Elmer. My comment made it sound as if all flexibility leaves the game once you hit your second or third city. The misunderstanding is all mine.

The difference in levels, which I think comes from Sulla's walk through, is that on Noble, you can found six cities willy-nilly, and then think about how you're going to win; on Monarch, you should be placing cities based on a victory condition, and then adjust according to circumstances. Given that VoR was deciding where to place a third and fourth city, it seemed an appropriated time to bring up the question.

Great advice, especially point 2.

 

[pigswill]

Today I'm more obtuse than usual. How does early city placement relate to victory conditions?

 

[Sisiutil]

Today I'm more obtuse than usual. How does early city placement relate to victory conditions?

In think it's a question of emphasis. For conquest/domination, you want metals and good production sites to built military units. For cultural, you want three good growth/commerce sites, one or two good production sites for military, and the rest don't matter nearly as much.

On Prince and below, I find so long as you focus in the early game on building a good foundation and select sites for basic specialization, you're good to go for any victory condition. Perhaps Monarch requires more of a specialized early approach.

 

[theimmortal1]

I don't think you really need to pick city sites based on victory. No matter what victory you are going for on any level, you want as many resources in your fat cross as possible. Obviously one of your first cities is placed with metal in mind. But other than that, theres nothing critical. You want some cities to be commerce powerhouses, some production, maybe a GP farm. All victory conditions require something of the sort.

 

[uncarved block]

Well, let's look at the map at hand. If the chosen victory is Space Race, then I might well take that settler outside Washington and take a shot at the Iron southwest of Beijing, and rush/whip another one to capture the Copper spot just to the south. The cost for distance would be high, but if the goal was to take down Asoka early, it would be worth it-- the path to the south requires staying on Alex's good side for an OB, or taking on Alex as well. (The Incense resource down there is blue, meaning he's got that corner sealed.) These would not be great city locations, meaning you're sacrificing good land in the name of a goal. The idea would be to expand early at India's expense, growing in size while reducing a serious competitor in the end game. (Another option is to build Galleys, but that notion gives me hives, considering the map.)

OTOH, if the goal is a Cultaral victory (which was left off the list), it would be a lot easier to expand north and east-- the Barb city barely visible from Boston indicates at least two cities worth of expansion, without too much pressure from an AI. If the optimum goal is nine cities, I can see at least three decent spots where the only competition is Barbarians. Add in Beijing and Burgundian, and you're almost there, with the added benefit of not making a new enemy.

Now it's certainly true that building all those cities to the east would help just about any victory condition, but the early rush to take down India makes less sense for Diplomatic or Cultural, it seems to me. Asoka is pretty peaceful, so surrendering (at least that's the percentages) that Iron to him might not be a big deal if you're going peaceful, or for a later war, but it makes a big difference if early war is the plan. India may have Copper or Iron anyway, but ceding that city spot makes those chances 100%.

Not every game is going to present choices like this, but I can see how seeing these opportunities early and building on them will be a big part of my game when (if!) I move up to Prince. Essential? No. A good idea? Seems like it right now, but YMMV.

 

[cabert]

regardless of which victory conditions you go for, you should work your traits
this gives a head start for certain victory conditions, but be careful of direct links.
Creative isn't going for cultural, it's a warmongering trait.

Washington is financial and organized (best way to use him is to play archipelago, but that's not the map you got here).
What are you going to do?
Get yourself a good bunch of cities, and cottage all you can, is my first idea.
where does that lead?
well, domination is easier with organized, space race also.
cultural is easier with financial, space race also. domination is helped too.

My guess would be to go for domination, and start asap by building + capturing some cities.
go for that copper, go for burgiron, makes 4.
After that, check alex's territory. copper or iron? not good !
can you see him fight anyone else? good!

if you look like the most obvious target for alex, best guess is to kill him first.
the chinese can wait. they're not as much a threat, but their turn will come, no doubt.

More news about exploring?

 

[pigswill]

I can certainly see the sense in tying in targetting strategy with victory strategy and targetting strategy also fits in with expansion strategy though I still don't see how this related directly to city placement (though I may be thinking of city placement in micro-terms (i.e. which tile) rather than macro(i.e.which direction to expand)).

 

[Nares]

C'mon VoU, stop waiting on ALC5 and get something posted.

I'm tempted to just post stuff from an early point in my game.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

OK, things are still bad, but they have gotten better.

Everything turned out to be a lot slower than I had hoped, so I'm really starting to get boxed in by civs that are up and running.

Got two cities out fairly quickly - Cuppertino (Philadelphia), and Atlanta to cut off Qin from the Iron - I placed it high on the pipedream of fighting Asoka for the Cows.

Cuppertino had immediate problems - Asoka beat me by settling across the strait - cutting my placement options, and just after I got the copper on line, he stole it from me. Bother. So I didn't get any metal going until Atlanta got onto the trade routes (I got suckered - grabbed sailing thinking that it would get my cities connected, but no). I picked up Archery along the way - perhaps I should have tried for Horseback riding, to get some Horse Archers going (didn't think of it), and a wandering monster took a chunk out of my barbarian defenses. Net result being that Asoka was able to beat me to Burgundian, as you can see below....

Now, tucked under the flag in Atlanta was another chariot, and I really didn't want to let Beijing develop, if I could help it (nor did I want to deal with Helliphants - though there isn't much risk of that). So stealing a worker seemed to make sense.

I managed to get a small squad up there - two axes, the aforementioned chariot, and a spare archer, which didn't look sufficient to take down the city with three, then four, then five! archers in it. At one point, Qin snuck an archer out onto the plains, so I threw an Axe at it (and lost, then realized I didn't have a second unit in range to pick up the spare).

Fortunately, this is the AI I'm fighting. With the city beseiged, Qin decided to send an archer pair toward Atlanta. The price was two axes and a spear, but I managed to capture the city, and hold it when the two archers doubled back.

The state of the world. I've just finished Alphabet, so I'm in position to demand one or two religious techs from Qin (the war is still on). Elsewhere on the tech tree:

The demographics screen hates me - first in GNP, sixth in everything else. Qin has one city in addition to Shanghai, just to the east in the tundra.

Save

 

[pigswill]

Seems like you've got plenty enough enemies;might be time to develop some friendships. Saladin sounds a potential friend, he's willing to tech trade and he's not close by. Really need to look at diplomatic screen to have a better idea of who's getting on with who.
Sounds like an idea to threaten Shanghai to try to extort techs from Qin.
Most likely next target is Asoka.
Edit: looked at the save;Alex is preparing for war with someone so might be time to prioritise military build-up. Once you've got Beijing productive could be worth considering helephants of your own. Maybe wait and see on war; if you're near the bottom of the power graph someone will pick on you.

 

[Sisiutil]

Good work capturing the Chinese capital! Elephants! Do you have construction yet for War Elephants and Catapults? You'll have them soon enough, I should imagine. No copper or iron? Elephant rush! So long as you don't run into any uppity Forest Elves on the battlefield, you should be okay. Seriously, at 8 strength, and with Cats weakening the city defenders, you have a powerful unit there even without City Raider promotions.

And despite the war, you're running at 70% research. Gotta love that Financial trait.

Have you found another source of metal, or have you reclaimed that copper tile by Philly? At this point, I'd be tempted to finish of Qin permanently, especially if Shanghai is his only other city, and go after Asoka. Burgundian is rightfully yours, just based on its location, and Bangalore is a nuisance and must die. Raze it and Philly's borders should claim the tiles and ensure that no one can rebuild there.

Lakes is a cool-looking map; lots of interesting strategic chokepoints. A few well-placed bordertowns could essentially serve as fortified outposts. Rather than wiping out a bunch of neighbours, it may make more sense to cut them back and then set up protective fort-cities on hills near their territory, allowing your core cities to chug along.

 

[cabert]

i would try extortion on the chinese, since you're in no shape for all out war.
Get a free tech, you need it.
And i fear Alex's victim is you!
So it would be timely to sue for peace with the chinese and build some defense for philadelphia and washington.

And you've got ivory and construction on the way!
I think i will love this game, finally!
EPIC elephants is overkill!
Don't be shy on the whip for cats...

 

[pigswill]

Why whip cats if you can whip elephants?

 

[cabert]

Why whip cats if you can whip elephants?

you can whip a cat for 1 pop after 1 turn building, and it's no big deal if it's unpromoted, so you can whip small cities/captured cities without barracks to good use.

Your elephants are more expensive, and you want them promoted (in order to lose less) .
The best way for this is with forges, and using the overflow bug (read again zombie69's article about whipping), but it's not going to happen too soon (metal casting is expensive!).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The best way for this is with forges, and using the overflow bug (read again zombie69's article about whipping), but it's not going to happen

It's not likely to happen at all, but by accident. I regard the overflow bug as an exploit (though I definitely need to reread that article, to make certain that I understand it fully), so I won't choose to use it.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

It's not likely to happen at all, but by accident. I regard the overflow bug as an exploit (though I definitely need to reread that article, to make certain that I understand it fully), so I won't choose to use it.

I feel the same way. If it happens by accident, then fine. So be it. It's not my fault the game has a rounding bug. However, deliberately arranging things so it happens is cheesy. It's an interesting math exercise, certainly, but for me it's not a very fun way to play the game.

It's also just too much mental work. If I want to do math problems, I'll go sign up for an advanced math theory class at a local university. ;-)

 

[uncarved block]

Nice to see the map is playing to form. Sisiutil, Lakes is like this when you set the water level to high; if it's medium or low, you end up with a world wrap Pangea. It is a fun map, though, if you can handle the Barb factor.

VoU, I must admit feeling anxious on your behalf. Alex's UU can still handle Elephants. My feeble advice is to plan for war on Asoka to get metal, but then I have a pessimistic streak. And have you thought about planting another city to the east, before that space gets snagged as well? (These plans may be mutually exclusive.)

Good luck, and hope to see more soon.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

VoU, I must admit feeling anxious on your behalf.

Sorry, that's my fault. Here's the current situation, with regards to resources:

The copper is loose, I don't think Asoka would have to put much culture in Bangalore to steal it back from me.

A quick check of the resource screen:
Saladin lacks horses.
Isabella lacks iron, copper, and horses!
Asoka lacks copper and iron.

Chuckle: Asoka has a galley in Burgundian. I didn't notice it sailing through Atlanta, but surely he didn't build it there?!

 

[Sisiutil]

What year is it? Maybe you could post an entire screenshot. It would also be useful to see the score summary--partly for the score, but more for the rundown of religions and OB agreements.

I'm playing a shadow match and headed in a very different direction. I tried to play as though I didn't know the map, making decisions based upon what I could see rather than what I knew. I don't want to post any spoilers, but I'll make a few general comments. I wound up building and capturing cities along an east-west axis. My first war was against Alex, mainly because I stole a worker from him and he refused any attempts to make peace. The barbs have been coming at me constantly, but I got copper hooked up early (my 2nd city, 2 tiles south of Philly on the plains hill), so my Axes earned plenty of XPs against them. I'm getting Guerrilla I Archers (who quickly earn Guerilla II) out into the fog south of me to keep them at bay.

I'm leading in score, but the warring and barbs slowed my cottage spam significantly, so I have to eat a little crow for my earlier remark on that. Overall, I think I'm doing well under the circumstances; I think I'm roughly even to where you are in your game. But I gotta spread more cottages if I want to keep up.