Let's play deity: NTT edition

[Rusten]

Feel like playing another deity game and why not post here -- it's been a while since I had a live write-up.
I'm planning on taking this one real slow and talk through my decisions, but shadow games are still welcome.

Settings: Hemispheres (vanilla settings) with no technology trading.

Spoiler :

Because I feel like doing something different. Besides, I think it's healthy to explore and try different settings every now and then not just for the fun of it but also to not stagnate as a player. In the past I used SGs for this purpose, but they're hard to find now.

What I like about the setting:
-Forces you to pursue the best techs for your territory/civ and not just the same ol' beeline and backfill.

What I don't like:
-More vulnerable to AIs. Harder to get +relations, can't bribe them, etc....
But at least it's easier than always war (although I suspect I will war a lot this game).

Plenty of other minor things to consider, and I'm not going to go into all of it now, but those are the main two changes.

The start (Mehmed [EXP/ORG] of the Ottoman empire [agriculture+wheel]):



Very interesting spawn -- I can think of multiple ways to start this.

 

[Rusten]

Option A: Settler moves to plains hill 2NW for a super fast (10T) worker.
edit: my initial fog-gazing was not correct. I thought the tile 1E of the PH was a hill, but that's not the case.

Spoiler :

Plus:
-Guaranteed fast worker.
-Would have a guaranteed fast 2nd city spot at or next to river PH. (safe from barbarians which means an early settler)
-More inland presence. Good against both barbs and avoiding getting blocked off. Hemispheres usually has a lot of space though, so not as crucial here.

Cons:
-terrible capital later on if there's only rice and no other commerce to be found (but palace can easily be moved)
-wastes 1T.
-low on commerce early (but good starting techs solve this problem to some extent)

Option B: Settle in place.

Spoiler :

Plus:
-Lots of food, good GP generator. (With EXP and Ottoman we can grow huge early).

Cons:
-Really slow start. No 2H city tile, does not benefit from worker bonus, no good resource available. Dry rice is bad and 30H for clam should generally not be considered until chops/BW.
-Has a hard time splitting the food (and guaranteeing a quick 2nd city). The only spot is the grass hill.

Option C: Settle PH 1SE of warrior

Spoiler :

Plus:
-2H city tile (but no worker bonus)
-Good GP generator and can easily share food/good tiles with a 2nd city (1E of rice).
-A LOT of early commerce

Cons:
-wastes 2T.
-probably forced to go wb before worker which is really slow.
-so-so capital in the long term.
-Moves away from the center which means more barbarian trouble and more maintenance overall.

I started off thinking this was a difficult decision, but as I've talked through it I'm convinced option A is best. I can only change my mind if I find something to the south, so warrior explores 1SW.
Moving SE can only really find seafood compared to SW and seafood is not going to make me change my mind. Maybe if it's coastal fish, but option A gets me such a quick 2nd city anyway.

Spoiler :

Changes nothing.

 

[Fippy]

Would probably sip, you actually would get a 13t worker with the plains hill after border pop.

 

[MrGrandiose]

Will sure be following! No Technology trading +deity always makes for an interesting story!

 

[Rusten]

Would probably sip, you actually would get a 13t worker with the plains hill after border pop.

Maybe you're right about SIP. The tile I talked about not being a hill is a big deal as the other tiles in the first ring of the PH seem to be unforested.
Already wasting 1T moving there, and if there's no bonus then the worker is not even out sooner than SIP.
Perhaps I should trust the civ gods more. Usually I regret not SIP when I move. Consider my mind changed again.

Will sure be following! No Technology trading +deity always makes for an interesting story!

 

[Fippy]

I am always tempted by plains hill settles too
It's a gamble i think here, can work out really well or being stuck with dry rice and stuff like plains.

Taking this question a bit further, would i move on the ph in games like sgotm..doubt i would dare.
Or maybe here we would evaluate if we could justify possible gains vs. moving back again.

Oh wow funny with that corn, plains hill settle would have worked well too then ~~

 

[Rusten]

Fippy got this game off to a good start.

Spoiler :

SIP reveals 3rd clam and corn.

Wowzer! That's a lot of food. My only worry is that the surrounding area is then complete crap. Desert already visible.
At least there's plenty for the capital to share.

Probably not playing on tonight, but I struggle to see an alternative to worker first and mining-bw tech.

 

[dutchfire]

That's a lot of food! Both grains are dry though, it seems. 3S1E looks like a good spot for a city. Instant traderoute via the river, can share a clam and has two FP.
Tech: Yes, with Mining->BW, your worker will not have anything to do soon (except build a bunch of roads...).

Lots of forests, want to try a wonder?

 

[lymond]

play in short turn sets - no more than 10 turns - and wait for advice

 

[Rusten]

That's a lot of food! Both grains are dry though, it seems. 3S1E looks like a good spot for a city. Instant traderoute via the river, can share a clam and has two FP.
Tech: Yes, with Mining->BW, your worker will not have anything to do soon (except build a bunch of roads...).

Lots of forests, want to try a wonder?

Yup, that city looks good. Safe from barbarians and gives instant returns.
I think BW will be done about the same time as I finish irrigation. A wonder would be nice. GLH always comes to mind on coastal starts, but it's not that good on Hemispheres usually.

play in short turn sets - no more than 10 turns - and wait for advice

I'm expecting my bitcoin by friday. These don't come for free you know.....

 

[Rusten]

3000 BC:
As mentioned I saw no other play than worker first and mining-bw.
Managed to keep my starting warrior alive. Will probably keep it in the current location to spawnbust and avoid a stream of barbarians coming in from the north early.

Noteworthy events:
Met Persian scout T6, Portuguese scout T15, Aztec scout T22.
Montezuma is worst enemy of Darius/Joao and vice versa.
Persia can be seen in the bottom left of the screenshot.

A look at the land post BW (no copper):



Conclusion:
-Persia seems to be in between us and Montezuma --> good news for the short term. I'll probably avoid an early DoW. If either him or Joao border him there will be war for sure, and Joao will do Joao things so this is likely to happen.
-Seems like we are one of the northernmost civs on a large continent --> barbarians will be an issue as they'll spawn in the surrounding area --> will need archery. At least the warrior is helping out for now.
-Stone is nearby --> Pyramids seems like a good play with all the food (and capital forests) available. The question is when and where to settle the city. Ideally it would be on the plains hill (adding sheep to BFC), but it might be necessary to settle 1NE of the stone and share corn with capital. I'm not yet sure about the timing of getting the border popped. The good news is that it's in the middle of nowhere and I doubt I'll have any competition for it. The area in between me and Darius is pretty bad so I feel no need to sprawl at this point. OTOH he might be a good target later. I can dogpile if Montezuma attacks him.

So plan for next turns:
Grow to 4 and finish warrior at the same time --> chop into settler and whip at 40/100 --> settle south of capital.
New warrior goes SW to fogbust.
Tech: fishing-hunting-archery I suppose.

Questions to solve:
-Whip worker 2-1 after settler? This seems good if we are to chop many forests. If we're saving them for the Pyramids it seems poor. I'll need to think about it some more. I'm uncertain about the builds and growth overall. The start is quite flexible. Whipping a work boat (share between cities) 2-1 seems pretty good as well. OTOH, it's not that much better than simply working FP. Worker will probably chop and mine river PH next.
-How many forests should be put into work boats? Need to save many for the Pyramids.

Overall the start is complicated. Not clear-cut.

Thinking about it more I'm inclined to grow again after whipping the settler. Population matters. no 1-pop whip unless I discover something neat. 2-popping a worker at 4 and putting overflow (yay EXP) into something useful seems best.

 

[Fippy]

Yup the Pyras look awesome with this start, stone and plenty forests + good food for overflow whips.
While no early happy resis.

At first glance i would think your Cap needs only 1 workboat, then i would look at mines.
~7 forests for Pyras should be fine, 280h and the rest could probably be generated with mines and overflow whips.
Exp granary should help later. Chopping 3-4 more early will def. help you.

 

[Rusten]

3000 BC --> 2000 BC:

Decided against hunting-archery. It's a complete dead-end and the Pyramids require some extra techs.
Decision was influenced by my warrior defeating a barb warrior and getting woodsman (can reliably beat archers when fortified), and also by seeing AI units roam around the area. No barbs in sight. Seems my initial worry was unwarranted -- not a tundra situation.
Worst case scenario I chop or whip out warriors to defend (unlikely).

Capital went worker (partly chopped) after settler.
Got a very early granary this game. At 30H it's the same as a work boat, and this start has flood plains, so I figured the granary would be the more efficient of the two. I got full regrowth thanks to some avoid growth tricks.
Never get granaries this early without EXP, and consider it with EXP only in very extreme scenarios.



T41 Istanbul size 3



T46 Istanbul size 6. Whipping settler (3 pop) next turn. City goes next to stone.



T50/2000 BC:
Granary in both Istanbul and Edirne. Stone hooked up next turn.
Tech path since last post: fishing-pottery-masonry-AH.

 

[Major Tom]

Thanks for your writeup. Why are you going AH? Why not writing (library running scientists with all that food). I would even put sailing before AH for establishing traderoutes (and a small window for lighthouse, perhaps a Great one too ) Just curious, trying to improve my gameplay.

 

[Snowbird]

Please, turn on resource bubbles for screenshots -- would make counting sheep and cows easier...

 

[Rusten]

Thanks for your writeup. Why are you going AH? Why not writing (library running scientists with all that food). I would even put sailing before AH for establishing traderoutes (and a small window for lighthouse, perhaps a Great one too ) Just curious, trying to improve my gameplay.

Biggest reason: I want to know the location of horses. My next city site is flexible. There's also sheep and cows around (sorry for the lack of a good overview screenshot, see below for this).
Investing hammers into the Pyramids also means that I won't build a library until later. Capital will build the wonder while Edirne will whip out the next settler(s).
Lighthouses will not be necessary until I have the higher happy cap from the Pyramids. If I got sailing for free I would've made some lighthouses I suppose, but it's not big enough priority. AH gives a 20% boost to writing too.

GLH doesn't strike me as that good on this map. Looks like I'll have 3, maybe 4 coastal cities.

Please, turn on resource bubbles for screenshots -- would make counting sheep and cows easier...

Here's an overview with resource bubbles, but it's almost identical to the one in the 3000 BC post. I haven't been able to explore because it would leave me vulnerable to barbarians. I'll try to remember the bubbles.

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

I got full regrowth thanks to some avoid growth tricks.

How does this work? I've read about it before and tried to do it, but don't think it worked.

Please, turn on resource bubbles for screenshots -- would make counting sheep and cows easier...

I agree, much easier with bubbles. Just make sure not to fall asleep.

Edit: A short question too. I see in a screenshot that you have power ratio on all three AIs - have you not focused spy points on anybody, and therefore managed to get this on all of them? Maybe it doesn't matter much here since you can't trade techs anyway, but wouldn't it be good to still have tech view on somebody? I guess you'll be stealing techs later?

 

[dutchfire]

Sure would be nice to know if there's seafood to the north

 

[lymond]

Rusten - Do you take bitcoin for resource bubbles?

@Pangaea - I too would be interested in some additional tricks with the "avoid growth/granary" hijinks, but at a basic level I use it at times to optimize growth after a granary finishes, if otherwise finished after the halfway point. "Avoid growth" allows the granary to fill-up for a turn. (I learned it originally from My and Izuul)

I'm assuming Rust has some additional tricks up is sleeve as well, maybe related to a) after whipping or starving to recharge the growth b) possible something related to high food surplus and food overflow

 

[Rusten]

2000-1000 BC:

I moved my woodsman warrior back for protection against a barbarian (spawned north of cows) and almost immediately a barbarian city showed on the map. No worries though, it doesn't block my intended 4th city spot. City 4 will pick up the newly discovered horses and rice+sheep.



Not much going on this millenium. Istanbul quietly making steady progress on the Pyramids. It was completed 1440 BC IIRC. All of the forests were cut down by T61 (1560 BC). It might've made sense to do 1 more worker whip into it than I did (and alternate tile #3 between food and mine until happiness penalty wears off). Small mistake on my part.



1480 BC: Writing is in and I immediately open borders with Darius (hoping for missionaries).

City #4 is settled 1440 BC -- grabbing 3 new resources.
I forgot that I had not teched mysticism, but with the 3 forests nearby I simply chop the library (mine grass hill). Workers are available to help.



Overview 1000 BC:



I've settled city #5, which will be the last one for now. No other good spots available and it's right in line with the representation boost.
Settled 1S of cows because:
-saved a forest (and gives more from the forest 1NW of cows)
-can grow 1 more capital cottage
-plains wine is not a very good tile so I having it within my borders (100 culture) is enough
-Ankara needs the corn at all times, so overlapping it is of little use.

But the biggest reason by far was the saving of the forest. It made possible chopping the granary at size 1. It makes a huge difference. Ideally no city should be settled without workers nearby.

In other news, Montezuma has declared war on Darius.
I've adopted Judaism. Joao too. Once he's pleased I am completely safe from any attacks.
Somehow Joao has 10 cities while Darius has 4 (and no, he didn't lose any to Montezuma). The cities Darius have look extremely juicy though, right in the middle of the jungle belt with several resources and rivers. They will be mine one day, be it off of Montezuma's or Darius' hands.

Look into the cities:

Spoiler :

Ankara is struggling a bit for food until CS, but thanks to the joys of overlap it can work 3 grassland river cottages for Istanbul (and Istanbul can run scientists with its huge food surplus).

Tech path was AH-writing-sailing. I've all the techs I need for the short term. Will save up gold now and wait for libraries.