[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses

[Hesha]

And what would I do with a second GS? Have him build an Academy in my second strongest science city or bulb? I could bulb paper?

 

[Major Tom]

Generally, you get more beakers bulbing some bigger techs (no overflow).

Academy if you go space at least. You have to decide for winning condition. Then answering your questions can give meaning.

Anyway, you should run caste/pacifism at some point to hoard Great Scientists. You got religion now for pacifism?

 

[Hesha]

I think I might try diplo...

So... I've played on a bit and I just came across something really peculiar:

Spoiler :

So, when I researched Optics, I built a Caravel, put my GM on board to ship him over to Constantinople and on my way there I found this large uninhabited landmass. "Cool!", I thought, maybe I can settle it. Then I traded maps with everybody except JC only to find out that this is the continent that 2-city-Sally has been sitting on all along. It's 500 AD - what the hell is up with that guy? As a human player that would be an amazing starting location - no competition for the whole continent, while at the same time a close connection to your neighbours. Why has he not expanded? I've never seen something like this before! And of course, the next question is: Should I settle the west of this continent? I seem to remember that my own cities on other continents yield richer trade routes? Silk and Furs are unavailable so far, so I could definitely benefit. And if I do, do you think that Desert with Iron in the far W is a good spot because of fish?

 

[krikav]

Thats really odd.
Have no idea why that would happen.

 

[Major Tom]

Are you sure you traded maps with Saladin? If not you only got what others have scouted over there. If yes, he may have had some serious barb trouble while constructing buildings or wonders. (Edit: ice and tundra are brutal barb spawning areas)

 

[Major Tom]

Desert iron fish spot good spot, especially for gifting before winning vote. But you need Astro for galleon.

 

[Hesha]

Thats really odd.
Have no idea why that would happen.

Okay, it's just not me then

Are you sure you traded maps with Saladin? If not you only got what others have scouted over there. If yes, he may have had some serious barb trouble while constructing buildings or wonders. (Edit: ice and tundra are brutal barb spawning areas)

Yes, I did. JC was the only one who didn't want to sell his map.

Desert iron fish spot good spot, especially for gifting before winning vote. But you need Astro for galleon.

No I don't - it's perfectly accessible from the around other side (i.e. by going W instead of E)! I could have settled those parts centuries ago, if I had known / scouted that Sally is behaving so strangely.

But since I am going to beeline for Mass Media now, I will have to research Astronomy next anyways... kiss that lovely colossus good bye!

 

[Major Tom]

Oh, I see. Small map and no more AIs too meet...

Anyway, it’s time for you to decide the path to (any) victory. What’s your thoughts about achieving it?

 

[Hesha]

Well.. I guess I had a bit of time on my hands. I finished the game. For the first time since starting to play Civ4 in 2007 or 2008, I have tried to go for a Diplomatic Victory. I just did it, Diplomatic Victory in 1470 AD - that has to be my earliest victory yet.

Thanks so much to everybody who has been giving me advice - your tipps have already helped me to become a better player. I guess the best thing to do now, is to start a new game? If you're not sick of me and my questions yet, I'd love to start another shadow game - let me know, what you think!

I've attached the final save. This is after the election was held, but before the results were announced, so I think you just need to end the turn and you will have won the game.

The reason why I picked the diplomatic route was... laziness. Every other type of victory was either unachievable at the time I took the decision (Cultural Victory) or would have taken much more effort and micro management (Domination / Conquest). I also felt that the Diplomatic Victory was achievable fast both in game time and RL time.

Spoiler :

Considering my lead in score, I guess I can move on to Emperor.

One final question for this round... how is it decided who opposes me? Because... if JC had been my opposition in the election, it would have been a draw, I only won because from one turn to the next my opponent in the election became Justy - who was generally hated in the world.

 

[lymond]

What is going on with Sal is very bizarre. I don't really have an explanation as to why he would not have expanded on his continent. My only guess is that he had some early barb troubles and some unlucky rolls and lost a settler, likely more, to barbs. I checked in Wb and he has only 1 settler currently sitting in Mecca. There is one barb Axeman on the edge of his borders - inside - and a barb archer out in the wilds. What is hugely surprising is no barb cities spawned in that area. Anyway, Sal does not have metals so he may have encountered some barb axes that killed the escorts. After a couple of lost settlers, Sal as an AI, might have gone into what I call a "submissive" mode for a while, meaning he emphasized defense more than expansion. Really odd as AI gets bonuses against barbs, but with that much open land there might have been several axes and spears that spawned with no real counter on Sal's side. AI settler parties will often go back home if encountering enemy units.

I checked the 116 save, and the Golden Age was badly misplayed. I was hoping you would stop for advice before kicking it off. You are basically not running specialists at all during the golden age. You would have either maxed specialists, or maybe waited until you completed NE in Thebes first, while maxxing growth in cities before the golden age. Definitely something to learn from. Golden Ages are for maxxing specialists and GPP.

Anyway, the GS could have been used for part bulbing Education. You probably would have produced more with a better conducted Golden Age. Not sure what you used the GS for that you talked about earlier.

Temple of Artemis is owned by Mali. Probably in Tim. This would have been the best spot to conduct trade mission as ToA adds an extra 200g to the trade mission. We had not discussed that yet.

 

[lymond]

One final question for this round... how is it decided who opposes me? Because... if JC had been my opposition in the election, it would have been a draw, I only won because from one turn to the next my opponent in the election became Justy - who was generally hated in the world.

That's a very nice win! Congrats!

It's basically based on population as pop determines votes. You see on the Victory Screens (F8) > Members tab > (United Nations+Diplo Victory) that Justy has 108 votes and JC 99. Justy has more population.

Although I think you have tons to learn, you can certainly move up to Emperor if you'd like. This was a bit of an unusual start with low food cap. It's good to learn how to manage that, but learning how to use more bountiful starts is good too.

I might suggest Pangaea for a couple of games just to have more interaction with AI early and more pressing expansion needs.

Do you use a GE on UN?

ha..looks like Sal finally woke up and expanded some.

Did you look closely at the diplo bonuses you were getting with the AI and why?

 

[lymond]

@lymond Do you agree with Krikav that I should attempt any more wonders until Kremlin? I'm failgolding Shwedagon Paya atm, don't think I would finish it unless you think it's a good idea. But the only religious civic I'd pick anyways is probably Pacifism and I can do that without that wonder from Philo. But what should I research next?

For the most part yeah, and even Kremlin was irrelevant here. Only wonder at that point I might consider is Taj, but Natio as a tech I believe is irrelevant if pursuing UN Diplo. Fail gold wonders like Shweggie is fine...and you don't have to complete it. Anyway, Kremlin probably only worth it in Space games or some late warring.

I meant to ask what you used Lib on in this game? Physics? Radio?

 

[lymond]

Oh..meant to respond on the MP stuff. Honestly, I'm not much into MP, but played a bit years ago - both on the servers and Pitboss.

One thing that can lead to OOS is not having matching assets. Could be related to mods used or some differences in installations. I don't think MP would work at all if yall were not at least using the same mods, but there could be some different assets.

What version of IV do you use? Disks? Steam? Some other DD? Is your bro on the same version?

What is your MP platform?

 

[Hesha]

I guess I should at least give a summary on what happened. It was almost a millennium and a half, so I don't remember it all, but...

... O.M.G. did the failgolding work out for me. When I started beelining for Mass Media the money just kept pouring in from Angkor Wat and all the other pointless wonders I had started. It kept me at 100% research for ages.
... the tipps on diplomacy were super valuable. In the past I was more of a passive bystander as the relationships to me neighbours inevitably deteriorated. This time, I knew some bits of how to influence it. I admit, I didn't monitor the guys nearly as much as I could have, by which I'm saying, there is really now excuse to only have the "shared discoveries with us"-bonus with Mansa, I could have had it will all of them, always gifting them a tech the last turn before they would have got it anyways. But seeing all the fair trading bonuses stacking up was good!
... I definitely learned how important the early game is. When both you and Krikav commented on how well my economy was doing, I hadn't really seen it yet, but once the foundation is laid and you go into growth mode, it really takes off.
... I also learned how some things are just really situational. In this game, with GLH built so early on, I think I should have tried to get the ToA (doubling the bonus from GLH, right?!) or at least get compass sooner, because my commerce really took off when I started building harbours. It's a building I overlooked in the past because I hadn't a clue what trade routes do, but having 4 3+C routes per city, that 50% bonus is pretty juicy.

Things I definitely still need to learn...
... Golden Ages - obviously
... how to decide what to do with my citizens. Which tiles are "better" than specialists, how important is growth vs. specialists, etc. I ran very few specialists in the end.
... how to improve the land. I was completely at your mercy there, because I would have built a ton of mines and stuff that you just don't seem to think are necessary
... whipping. I still don't know what's worth whipping and what isn't. I have understood that 1 pop whips are usually not a good idea, but I have more to learn.
... warfare - didn't wage any war in this game and from what I've gathered I've always done it wrong. I always used to kill everyone/everything on my own continent, then beeline to rifling, build riflemen, build a bunch, throw them on galleons and then attack - if I came too late and AI had riflemen before I was finished, I'd go for Infantry+MGs, later tanks.

Some interesting things that happened in the game...
... JC and Justy both started mobilizing, JC eventually attacked Mansa. Mansa had held the second highest score the entire game, but JC completely wiped the floor with poor Mansa. If I hadn't bribed JC to stop the war (gave him some tech and got peace and all his cash in return), he would have wiped him out completely. Just before I won, JC attacked again... what a psycho. Poor Mansa...
... that Sally thing was just freaky. and the funny thing is when I went over there, if was teeming with barb galleys, but there were only ordinary warriors there, no axes or archers. And no barb cities at all! I think he started settling, when I founded the first city. I wanted to build more cities, but he caught up really fast. Must have had premanufactured settlers or something.

It's basically based on population as pop determines votes. You see on the Victory Screens (F8) > Members tab > (United Nations+Diplo Victory) that Justy has 108 votes and JC 99. Justy has more population.

That's not what I meant. One AI gets picked by the game to run against you. When I built the UN, it was JC. Then a few turns later it was Justy. Or did you mean to imply that it's always the most populous AI that runs against you?

Although I think you have tons to learn, you can certainly move up to Emperor if you'd like. This was a bit of an unusual start with low food cap. It's good to learn how to manage that, but learning how to use more bountiful starts is good too.

I might suggest Pangaea for a couple of games just to have more interaction with AI early and more pressing expansion needs.

Yes, that's probably true. I've rolled a pretty interesting start with Meshi, that I would like to play. It's on a tiny map, though. I've always preferred smaller maps because the games end up being shorter and it's really no fun micromanaging 50 cities, I think ^^ I have attached the 4000BC start - if you think the settings are stupid, I will discard it, if you think its okay, I'd like to use it for my next shadow game. This next time around, instead of posting the updates and asking what I should do, I plan to tell you what I think I should do and you can comment on that. I think that makes sense at this stage.

Also, feel free to suggest a leader / civ for my next shadow game - you will know best what leader will give me as different an experience as possible. I want to learn, so it makes sense to play someone who can't get so many wonders or something.

Do you use a GE on UN?

Yup! Worked out perfectly, he came out when I was already researching Mass Media. Took me 6 or 7 turns to built the UN.

I meant to ask what you used Lib on in this game? Physics? Radio?

No, I wasted it on something stupid. I think at that time I hadn't decided what I wanted to do yet (victory-wise) and I think I blew it on Astronomy. I hadn't played the game for years and forgotten how drastically the beakers increase after Scientific Method. In hindsight it'd most certainly have been Physics - unless I would have been reasonably sure that noone is close to discovering it for themselves, then I might have saved it for Electricity or Radio.

 

[Hesha]

Oh..meant to respond on the MP stuff. Honestly, I'm not much into MP, but played a bit years ago - both on the servers and Pitboss.

One thing that can lead to OOS is not having matching assets. Could be related to mods used or some differences in installations. I don't think MP would work at all if yall were not at least using the same mods, but there could be some different assets.

What version of IV do you use? Disks? Steam? Some other DD? Is your bro on the same version?

What is your MP platform?

I've started a topic here, I'll respond there!

 

[krikav]

Nice going!

I agree with Lymond, roll a pangea for next game.
Not bothered by the storm of questions at all, it's very nice that you are asking and are willing to learn.

 

[Hesha]

Nice going!

I agree with Lymond, roll a pangea for next game.
Not bothered by the storm of questions at all, it's very nice that you are asking and are willing to learn.

Do you think Tiny is doable or is that too small for a realistic experience of the game? I usually pick Tiny and add one or two additional AIs for my casual games to keep the tedium bareable.

 

[lymond]

... I also learned how some things are just really situational. In this game, with GLH built so early on, I think I should have tried to get the ToA (doubling the bonus from GLH, right?!) or at least get compass sooner, because my commerce really took off when I started building harbours. It's a building I overlooked in the past because I hadn't a clue what trade routes do, but having 4 3+C routes per city, that 50% bonus is pretty juicy.

ToA I rarely if ever build. I don't think it is worth it in one city even with GLH. The key thing is that all your cities get bonus trade routes and that is good enough. ToA can be good for fail gold early if you have marble - Ais are gonna build it pretty fast usually. I place more value on the AI owning ToA for those boosted trade missions.

Things I definitely still need to learn...
... Golden Ages - obviously
... how to decide what to do with my citizens. Which tiles are "better" than specialists, how important is growth vs. specialists, etc. I ran very few specialists in the end.
... how to improve the land. I was completely at your mercy there, because I would have built a ton of mines and stuff that you just don't seem to think are necessary
... whipping. I still don't know what's worth whipping and what isn't. I have understood that 1 pop whips are usually not a good idea, but I have more to learn.
... warfare - didn't wage any war in this game and from what I've gathered I've always done it wrong. I always used to kill everyone/everything on my own continent, then beeline to rifling, build riflemen, build a bunch, throw them on galleons and then attack - if I came too late and AI had riflemen before I was finished, I'd go for Infantry+MGs, later tanks.

You have lots to learn , grasshoppa It will come with time.

Some interesting things that happened in the game...
... JC and Justy both started mobilizing, JC eventually attacked Mansa. Mansa had held the second highest score the entire game, but JC completely wiped the floor with poor Mansa. If I hadn't bribed JC to stop the war (gave him some tech and got peace and all his cash in return), he would have wiped him out completely. Just before I won, JC attacked again... what a psycho. Poor Mansa...
... that Sally thing was just freaky. and the funny thing is when I went over there, if was teeming with barb galleys, but there were only ordinary warriors there, no axes or archers. And no barb cities at all! I think he started settling, when I founded the first city. I wanted to build more cities, but he caught up really fast. Must have had premanufactured settlers or something.

JC is not exactly a "psycho" level but he is a warmonger with a propensity to go to war. He actually held off for a long time but ultimately still attacked his religious brother. Mansa is a far more passive AI and builds less units. He often gets steamrolled, vassals, or even peacev vassals.

The psychos are Monty, Shaka, Rags, Nappy, Genghis and Alex. The Leaders with the highest unit prob (40) are Rags, Shaka, Nappy and Mehmed. JC's unitprob leans toward average but he is coded for higher war probability. Power rating and peaceweight factor in as well.

Sal may have tried ferry over some settlers as well and unluckily lost some galleys to barb galleys. Again, that falls on the rare side, and it is still surprising that he did not at least get out more cities before the barbs got bad. As mentioned, he has a barb axe a while back when I checked on his borders. There could have been many more barbs earlier in the game - they will all eventually just suicide against his cities. It just is a very odd and rare situation to see an AI that bad off with expansion with so much room. Very rare.

That's not what I meant. One AI gets picked by the game to run against you. When I built the UN, it was JC. Then a few turns later it was Justy. Or did you mean to imply that it's always the most populous AI that runs against you?

Nope, meant exactly what I said. Pop is the determining factor. You will face the AI with the highest pop. Looks like JC and Justy both have ten cities, so their population could fluctuate dramatically even over the course of a turn or 2 depending on what they are doing. JC might be whipping units for war with Mansa.

Yes, that's probably true. I've rolled a pretty interesting start with Meshi, that I would like to play. It's on a tiny map, though. I've always preferred smaller maps because the games end up being shorter and it's really no fun micromanaging 50 cities, I think ^^ I have attached the 4000BC start - if you think the settings are stupid, I will discard it, if you think its okay, I'd like to use it for my next shadow game. This next time around, instead of posting the updates and asking what I should do, I plan to tell you what I think I should do and you can comment on that. I think that makes sense at this stage.

Meshi? edit: ah Giggles..ha

Honestly, I think you should just play standard maps and setting from shadow games. Don't really have much patience and inclination to help folks playing other settings. Tiny maps mean far less land and fewer AIs. I think standard settings are fine. There are ways to manage more cities once you get used to it.

Also, feel free to suggest a leader / civ for my next shadow game - you will know best what leader will give me as different an experience as possible. I want to learn, so it makes sense to play someone who can't get so many wonders or something.

I suggest Sir Random of Randomonia...ha..it simply does not matter. You want to get used to them all. What really matters most is how you play the game.

Yup! Worked out perfectly, he came out when I was already researching Mass Media. Took me 6 or 7 turns to built the UN.

Great. Yep, GEs are key to faster UN victory, especially if not IND. If you can save two of them that is a 1t UN.

No, I wasted it on something stupid. I think at that time I hadn't decided what I wanted to do yet (victory-wise) and I think I blew it on Astronomy. I hadn't played the game for years and forgotten how drastically the beakers increase after Scientific Method. In hindsight it'd most certainly have been Physics - unless I would have been reasonably sure that noone is close to discovering it for themselves, then I might have saved it for Electricity or Radio.

As you move up levels you have less luxury on what you use Lib for. At least Astro was required here so not a terrible choice, but you probably had time for a more expensive tech and used GSs for things like Astro.

 

[Hesha]

Meshi?

Gilgamesh.

Honestly, I think you should just play standard maps and setting from shadow games. Don't really have much patience and inclination to help folks playing other settings. Tiny maps mean far less land and fewer AIs. I think standard settings are fine. There are ways to manage more cities once you get used to it.

I understand that. I wouldn't expect you to put up with me playing with advanced starts or other "cheats by settings", but I simply do not have the patience to play bigger map sizes. I play this for fun and standard or larger maps are my definition of "work". I have a job already, I don't need a second one that doesn't even pay I understand Tiny might be asking too much, fine, I can cope with small again. But I don't think this game here was distored by size, I don't think you guys had to adjust what advice you were giving because the map was smaller, did you?

I suggest Sir Random of Randomonia...ha..it simply does not matter. You want to get used to them all. What really matters most is how you play the game.

Sure. But that might just be Ramesses again or another IND leader. Getting someone who has an idea of what I need to learn pick seemed to make more sense.

 

[lymond]

I guess my point was it simply does not matter. Just roll a leader. If it is Ramses then roll again. But the two leaders I recommend most for learning are Toku and Washington. Toku is generally regarded as the worst leader. Basically, for learning, you will pretty much ignore his traits and uniques, which IMO is a good thing while learning. Washington on the other hand I like as a better but not OP leader. He has nice traits that work somewhat passively or with less thought around them, and again, uniques that are not a consideration.

I understand your point to a degree, but it is not like small vs. standard is that different. I play standard all the time and play tons of games. It is fine for you to play whatever maps, sizes or settings you want. I'm just recommending standard maps for learning. And Pangaea is pretty compact anyway. I think you will find it not much more of an effort than the Rammy game.