[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses

[Fish Man]

At the beginning of turn 103 JC just demanded I give him Alphabet. Usually I would tell him to stick his threats where the sun don't shine, but maybe that's wrong - what do you think?

Do you play with BUG? AIs sometimes start plotting immediately after you refuse a demand (never a request for help though). If a red fist appears next to Caesar’s name on the score list immediately after you tell him to stuff it, he’s planning to come take your stuff. In that case you can either reload from before and make a different choice or suck it up and start preparing for war. That being said the AIs suck at intercontinental invasions and this is only monarch so the most he’ll send are 2-3 galleys full of praets after like 50 turns of twiddling his thumbs. Just have a few triremes to snipe his fleet if you wanna tough it out and you should be good.

Another note if you decide to reload: you can usually stop the AI from demanding stuff on a particular turn by changing the way the seed is processed. You do that by declaring war on someone (not a good idea now) or making a tech trade, any tech trade/gift, with any AI. Or if you want to not savescum to this degree, replay the turn but give into his demand.

 

[Hesha]

I do play with bug. That fist did appear, so I loaded and sold him Alpha instead. Hmm... that's savescumming, though... ah well, I'm still learning

 

[Hesha]

Should I research Music directly or via Drama, which makes it cheaper?

 

[Hesha]

So, here's my next update, turn 107:

Spoiler :

I took a bunch of decisions here, hope none of them were terrible!

TGL is nearing completion in Thebes, I don't think I have to whip it, as no one else - to my knowledge - has Literature (or even Aesthetics), which should also mean I can research both Drama and Music before anyone else gets there. Where should I go after that? Philo? Paper? Those both have wonders that I used to build back in the day, but since I don't have a religion myself and no religious buildings, I don't think it makes much sense. Confucianism spread to Elie a few turns back, but since nobody shares that religion, I'm obviously not going to adopt or spread it.

Just founded the newest city in the SW, started with a Granary, but thought maybe a LH would help it more? Also started LHs in Alex and Pi, could also work on Moai there, what do you think? Coastal tiles just seem very, very juicy to me now with all the commerce.

Two final settlers are also finished and on the way, last chance to debate the best location inland!

In Thebes I think I will build a LH next.

I guess the workers can start building farms around Thebes now?

I'm also wondering where I should post Scientists and what the general rule is on what tiles are worth more or less than a scientist!

 

[krikav]

I would have given Julius alfabet if he asked for it.
Free diplo points <3

Don't whip GLib, just build it naturally.
National epic after that might be best, to take full benefit of Glibs GSci-points.
Capital is no good place for a great people farm (which is where National epic usually ends up), but nowhere else is sensible either so I would just build it asap.
Wouldn't worry about the lost failgold opportunity.
A lighthouse is a good idea though, as it gives more sensible tiles to grow on, but it's a lower priority!

There is very little use for drama here, so I would skip it entierly, even though it gives discounts on both music and philosophy.
I would want to go to CS next.

Next wonder to even consider I think is kremlin, taj is nice but too costly without marble even if you are ind. And the relative value of golden ages is diminished already due to playing a SPI-leader.
So don't build more wonders.
Only AI here with a high lust for wonders I think is Mansa, so make sure he has all the techs to build the wonders you want to fail.

What victory condition are you aiming for? Stomping these dufuses with cuirs should be a cakewalk. But need to get out of the builder mode and start just building wealth and reach lib->military tradition then.

There is no need for any fancy buildings, police state even reduces the value of ind forges, and barracks/stables won't be needed either.
Granary to ensure continuing whipping, and lighthouses so the cities have tiles to grow back on.

I still want the center city on the green spice, as I like the fact that such a city could share both the floodplain and the rice, juggling these food-rich tiles around is wonderful during whipping-festivities.
But the brown spice, or SE of iron is also ok.
I don't like 1E of iron as it lacks food.


*Edit*
Yes, farm every green tile on your island. Don't bother about cottages when you have rep and GLH.
If you really want some cottages, I bet there are a bunch of already matured ones next door!
*/Edit*

 

[Hesha]

There is very little use for drama here, so I would skip it entierly, even though it gives discounts on both music and philosophy.
I would want to go to CS next.

I already have CS! The plan was Music next for free GA and then I don't know what next. Mansa is researching Phil next, do I want to beat him to it? So far he has founded all religions but Hinduism (just founded Christianity a few turns back).

So don't build more wonders.

Okay. Say, is Shwedagon Paya a waste of time because religious civics are meaningless? Cause I could have built that with maximum bonuses as well.

What victory condition are you aiming for? Stomping these dufuses with cuirs should be a cakewalk. But need to get out of the builder mode and start just building wealth and reach lib->military tradition then.

Not sure, if I would do that then. If it's a cakewalk, I'd consider it a waste of my time and rather start a new game. I mean... if I have already won before I ship out my troops, I might as well leave it be. IF I were to finish the game, I'd say I'd go for another victory type. Because conquest/domination has always been my go-to.

I still want the center city on the green spice, as I like the fact that such a city could share both the floodplain and the rice, juggling these food-rich tiles around is wonderful during whipping-festivities.
But the brown spice, or SE of iron is also ok.
I don't like 1E of iron as it lacks food.

Okay, I'll have a think about that.

 

[Fippy]

This thread will break a record for shadow games, amazing.

 

[Hesha]

How? Why? Is this not normal?

 

[Hesha]

I still want the center city on the green spice, as I like the fact that such a city could share both the floodplain and the rice, juggling these food-rich tiles around is wonderful during whipping-festivities.
But the brown spice, or SE of iron is also ok.
I don't like 1E of iron as it lacks food.

I've settled on the green spices. There's a lot of grasslands around there. Are you sure cottages aren't the way to go here?

 

[krikav]

Like everything in this game, it depends.
If you are playing a very long game, cottages might be better, say if you decide now that you want to zoom of to space, then perhaps cottages makes sense. (Just maybe)

GLH with it's added commerce to alot of cities takes care of all commerce needs.
Pyramids enabled representation so you get +3 beakers per specialist.
These things combined speaks heavily in favour of farms.

In this situation, I wouldn't even cottage riverside tiles in the capital, but thats me, others might have other opinions.

 

[Hesha]

Makes sense. What would you research after Music then? And what should I do with the GA? Fire that Golden Age right away or wait for a better point in time (not sure what that would be, since I don't need it to avoid revolutions).

 

[lymond]

You could go either way on iron/spice. I like 1E of iron, but on the spice is fine.

Normally I don't bother with Drama, but no one has it yet, so it has trade value. Plus, the bonus on Music. So might as well complete it now and then on to Music.

Worker that just cottaged that FP, can move straight to 1E of Thebes and begin chain farming from that tile. Elie worker can chain farm that city after roading gold. Well, actually chop that one forest for HG W of Elie ..you can farm that tile.

I think we want most cities focusing on growth at the moment.

Yep, Thebes and Memphis can be chain farmed. Later Memphis green tiles can be converted to workshops.

I think one city I might cottage here is Helio.

 

[lymond]

I think you can see now why I had you build more workers. Lots to do now. I'd even like more, but I want the core cities to grow for now

 

[krikav]

Now, each game is unique, and you can never get everything perfect, but...
The proper time to run a GA is when you are at max happines in all cities AND the food bar of all cities are full.

That way both get the maximum benefit from working alot of tiles that are all improved by the golden age, and you can take the citizens of tiles that are heavy in food. (Notice that tiles under golden ages are +1H +1C, but not +1F. Hence food is reletively speaking worse during golden ages.).
You can also run alot of specialists and benefit from the 100% great person generation rate.

Ideally, you should end the golden age with all food bars depleted.

 

[Hesha]

Just played a casual round with my brother on Noble. OMG. How I dominated that game. We played loosely in co-op, he was very unfortunate, because we started next to each other and he was completely cut off from the rest of the world by my empire, so I decided to help him out by gifting him troops, a settler, a worker and a great artist (the one I got from Music). I have 1500 score, the next best Mao or Mehmed has 900... sweet. ^^

But goes to show that I shouldn't play Noble anymore

Because obviously in MP I don't have the time to micromanage everything, so I was super sloppy by shadow game standards, but still remembered a lot of your tipps. Funnily enough, there hasn't been any war yet! It's 640 AD or something.

 

[Hesha]

By the way, do any of you have experience with the multiplayer? We fell OOS like... every 2, 3 or 4 turns.. usually when I (the host) ended a turn. Is there a fix for this? At the beginning it seemed to happen whenever the game autosaved, but that doesn't seem to be the case, as we disabled autosaving and it kept happening.

 

[Hesha]

Next update, turn 116:

Spoiler :

Trade with Mansa Musa: Do you think I should trade Mansa's Calendar and a bunch of his money for my Music? Music is worth a lot, but the main bonus I've already grabbed... or should I be worried about him getting to Mil Trad to quickly and not do it?

New cities: I have marked 3 more coastal positions on the map. Obviously these don't have great features like the previous ones, but they can share copper and cow in two cases plus I would close a big gap up north and free up two fogbusters, who probably cost me more than a city with 4 trade routes that will more or less pay for itself and can live off the sea. The northern position is obviously poor, I'm not sure which of those is the better one. I figured the one E of the question mark could run a levee while also having the most sea sqares to use (7 vs. 5 in the other two cases). If I use that one, I could even put another city down 2W of the question mark. What do you guys think? I'm not used of a situation like this, where cities basically pay for themselves - plus before this shadow game I have never built overlapping cities! The location in the SE will be surrounded by farms shortly and the one in the W would have access to farmed plains and some GL as well. So they would grow, not just off the sea. But even at only size 3 or 4 they'd bring in way more commerce than they cost me.

GP: I'll spawen a GP (probably a GM) in Memphis in 3 turns. Do I want that? If I appoint 2 more scientists in Thebes, I will spawn a GP there instead (probably GS). I feel GMs are more useful once I have Optics (as there bonus scales with distance from cap, right?)...
speaking of which: Should I go for optics to a) improve that whale, b) get that circumnavigation bonus? You still haven't told me what to research after Music, so far I have gone for Philo, which will be finished next work (I'm only at 60% because I ran out of funds and this will still finish the tech, otherwise I'm binary). Guess that'll give me Taoism as well.

@lymond Do you agree with Krikav that I should attempt any more wonders until Kremlin? I'm failgolding Shwedagon Paya atm, don't think I would finish it unless you think it's a good idea. But the only religious civic I'd pick anyways is probably Pacifism and I can do that without that wonder from Philo. But what should I research next?

I really noticed what a massive difference that GLH makes, wow. In my MP with my brother I failed it by 2t and because I was ahead anyways, I just sucked it up and took the failgold, but having 3/4 trade routs vs. 1/2 makes a big difference. I built almost every single other wonder in that game, so it's not too bad By the way, Thebes has the first 4C trade route now with Timmy! Thanks also for your tipps on Diplo. I don't think I've ever been that popular ^^ Do you ever go for diplo victories?

 

[Hesha]

Oh, one more thing. I have never paid any mind to Espionage in my games in the past. But now that you've explained what I can use it for, I was wondering: If I ran just one turn of 100% on Espionage instead of Tax or Research, I could see the techs AND cities of Justy, who is not investing any EPs at all. He has been the second strongest AI on the map consistently, so I'm wondering if that might be worth it...

 

[Major Tom]

Enjoy your well written posts. Since you ask, this can be a cool case for bulbing your through electricity, lib radio, research Mmedia and win UN super early. Perhaps Starting with optics, astro to get good trades and avoid a possible blocking by Julius.

Mansa will be friendly when Free Market is online. Check out the others favourite civic and work with those who is compatible with your civics in the future.

 

[Major Tom]

Oh, one more thing. I have never paid any mind to Espionage in my games in the past. But now that you've explained what I can use it for, I was wondering: If I ran just one turn of 100% on Espionage instead of Tax or Research, I could see the techs AND cities of Justy, who is not investing any EPs at all. He has been the second strongest AI on the map consistently, so I'm wondering if that might be worth it...

Not worth it if you ask me. Stick to a game plan for the win.