Let's play deity: NTT edition

How does this work? I've read about it before and tried to do it, but don't think it worked.

Edit: A short question too. I see in a screenshot that you have power ratio on all three AIs - have you not focused spy points on anybody, and therefore managed to get this on all of them? Maybe it doesn't matter much here since you can't trade techs anyway, but wouldn't it be good to still have tech view on somebody? I guess you'll be stealing techs later?
Granaries give me a headache. Deserves a thread of its own. I'm sure there is one somewhere already. If not it should be made -- such an important building.

I split the EP to get the graphs. Helps me keep an eye on war progress (power in particular). It's such a small amount of EP anyway -- not worth the cost of teching alphabet and building a spy early on. Choosing an EP target comes into play later.

In a tech trading game I might've put all on Darius (or Joao if I was running HR/didn't build the Pyramids) for friendly tech trades and avoiding overlap (seeing research).
Sure would be nice to know if there's seafood to the north :)
Nothing new unfortunately. The NW is truly inhospitable.
 
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What's going to be your first war? Horse Archers?
 
What's going to be your first war? Horse Archers?
If I had missed the Pyramids then yes, horse archers would probably be the choice. It's not easy to see on the screenshot, but all 3 of Persia's visible cities are on flatland. Pretty sure it would be profitable. Even more so if he's already being attacked by Montezuma.

With the Pyramids I'm more inclined to develop peacefully for a while. Religion is being spread to me so I will be able to make use of the religious civics. First OR to whip forges and hammams and then theocracy for better units. Having one of theocracy or vassalage is key as it unlocks the 2nd promotion. Against castles for instance you really need accuracy trebs to speed up the bombardment. Saves a lot of time. CR2 maces are good too.

Once infrastructure is made adopting police state makes a lot of sense for a free forge in every city. Once you go to war on deity you usually put all of your effort into it -- I won't be running specialists then. Treb+mace+xbows+pike is what I normally go for in these situations. Waiting for knights takes a bit too long, but they will be added later. Depends on the strength and size of the AI too.

Lurking with interest. What is your GP plan?
Lightbulbing is not that great with NTT, so the first 2 will be academy+golden age I think. Golden age will be helpful as I need to swap a lot of civics later (see above). Will time it for that. Will also get Moai Statues up and running before starting it. If I get an engineer then rushing a wonder also makes sense. MoM and the GL are good candidates.

1st GP will be in Istanbul due to Pyramids. I will just roll the dice and see whether I get a GE or GS there. Edirne can guarantee the GS for an academy with the 2nd.

The usual path of lightbulbing philosophy+education and going lib-cuirassiers is not as appealing without tech trades. One of the strengths of that strategy is that you don't rely on any techs on the bottom part of the tree and can trade for MC, machinery, guilds, feudalism, engineering, banking (and more) when they become available -- effectively saving thousands of beakers while at the same time doing efficient lightbulbing. If you go for that here then you're still stuck researching the mentioned techs after getting cuirassiers.
 
Just a quick question: With no tech trading, does that also mean you can't get techs in peace deals? I assume so, but otherwise that would be a way to at least get a few techs.

Also, if assumption is correct, does this mean an AI could be more likely to gift away cities to achieve peace after you've put the squeeze on them?
 
Interesting game. Plan with Engi looks like natural way to go here since one does need machinery anyway (Optics->Astro) but dont you think it can be a little bit too late ?.
Monty can ezy roll over Darius and ~12 cities Monty will be hard to stop monster for you haveing like 5 or 6. Well yea Jao could help but without TT its hard to do so.
looking forward how you play this out :popcorn:
 
Just a quick question: With no tech trading, does that also mean you can't get techs in peace deals? I assume so, but otherwise that would be a way to at least get a few techs.

Also, if assumption is correct, does this mean an AI could be more likely to gift away cities to achieve peace after you've put the squeeze on them?
No techs from AI at all.. no techs between AI and.. almost always no early Alphabet done from Ai side too for some time (had games where some AI had Astro, Chemistry and MT but still no Alphabet done) :)
 
No techs from AI at all.. no techs between AI and.. almost always no early Alphabet done from Ai side too for some time (had games where some AI had Astro, Chemistry and MT but still no Alphabet done) :)

You can steal tech with NTT and the ratios you can get from doing so make it pretty silly.

The main disadvantage is that you can't steal past parity, and you need a lot of land to win at parity on deity, so you probably want to actually research a little too.
 
1000 - 275 BC
A builder turnset.

Istanbul is first to finish a library and puts some hammers into Moai afterwards (fail gold). Konya will finish it eventually. Mathematics in only 4 turns thanks to representation once I turn research back on.

~650 BC: Darius has dye available for trade. He's also settled a 5th city and not lost any. Following the power graph through the turnset Montezuma is making no progress.

625 BC: Currency is in and I get a GE in Istanbul. Would've preferred a GS tbh.
3 options for this GE.
-rushing wonder (already mentioned)
-save for engineering bulb
-launch GA

PJSB741.jpg


In the end I opted for a GA (not immediately, but once CoL was completed). What swayed my mind was the possibility of doing multiple civic swaps and getting my academy GS sooner. Going aesthetics-lit and rushing GL is a little slow. Furthermore I need CS quickly for chain irrigation. My non-coastal cities really need it.

The sequencing is as follows:
Step 1: Launched GA with GE and high pop --> adopted caste and ran specialists (Istanbul+Edirne). Bursa (horse/cow/sheep) ran a couple of artists after food resources for 100 culture and has successfully converted the barbarian city. This is a sometimes overlooked way to get rid of pesky barbarian cities. Once you cover them with culture they will succumb quickly.
Step 2: During GA complete research of monotheism+CS.
Step 3: Adopt OR+slavery+bureaucracy at the end of the GA and whip down the population (not capital) with OR boost (forges, hammams and barracks). Grow back while getting some basic military (maces/xbows as machinery will be completed first).
Step 4: Tech towards engineering and theocracy.
Step 5: Adopt police state+theocracy (this is without a GA, but only 1T anarchy). Try to leave maces and xbows 1T off completion before adopting theocracy for a quick burst of highly promoted units.
Step 6: Annihilate.

GS from Edirne made an academy in capital.
During GA I ran merchants in Istanbul so I will have a good chance of getting a GM (trade mission) or GE (engineering bulb) next. Either one will contribute. Not sure what to do with a GS at this point.

Next research:
High priority: MC-machinery-construction-engineering-theocracy.
2nd priority: monarchy+calendar -- hook up resources for happy cap (will need it when I drop out of representation).
Low priority: feudalism-guilds-banking -- no knights for the first attack and mercantilism won't make a big difference until I capture more cities and/or adopt representation again. No rush. A bank+grocer wouldn't be bad in Istanbul though. NTT means no selling of techs for gold and thus a lower slider.

Tech path during turnset was: mathematics-currency-mysticism-polytheism-priesthood-CoL-monotheism-CS-MC.

Overview of empire:
MvnfUZb.jpg


Technology progression:
VP3ssQn.jpg


Look at Istanbul netting more than half of my current research:
0NhOuYz.jpg


The reason for Montezuma's lack of progress:
x1UTr2W.jpg

He's just suiciding units into this city with walls up. Until he gets construction his attacks will amount to nothing.
 
Just a quick question: With no tech trading, does that also mean you can't get techs in peace deals? I assume so, but otherwise that would be a way to at least get a few techs.

Also, if assumption is correct, does this mean an AI could be more likely to gift away cities to achieve peace after you've put the squeeze on them?
No techs to be gained -- not even from vassals.
No idea if they weigh cities differently in NTT games. I'd assume not, but I don't have much experience with this setting.
Interesting game. Plan with Engi looks like natural way to go here since one does need machinery anyway (Optics->Astro) but dont you think it can be a little bit too late ?.
Monty can ezy roll over Darius and ~12 cities Monty will be hard to stop monster for you haveing like 5 or 6. Well yea Jao could help but without TT its hard to do so.
looking forward how you play this out :popcorn:
Which is late? Engineering or astronomy?
Astronomy is not a priority IMO. Will run mercantilism this game instead of rushing to Astro trade routes. Maybe early Astro if GS spawns.
I don't worry about 12 city Montezuma here. He will be behind in techs for sure and I have 5XP units. Really strong setup for war here with the abundance of food, police state and theocracy. I'll be able to whip out a massive stack. Coupled with the AI sucking at warfare there shouldn't be any problems, even if he takes out Persia first. I'll not allow him time to recover.
 
Which is late? Engineering or astronomy?
Astronomy is not a priority IMO. Will run mercantilism this game instead of rushing to Astro trade routes. Maybe early Astro if GS spawns.
I don't worry about 12 city Montezuma here. He will be behind in techs for sure and I have 5XP units. Really strong setup for war here with the abundance of food, police state and theocracy. I'll be able to whip out a massive stack. Coupled with the AI sucking at warfare there shouldn't be any problems, even if he takes out Persia first. I'll not allow him time to recover.

I was thinking that Engi rush can be too late if Monty starts to take over Darius, but looks like this is not the case here and yea without Construction he will just suicide hes troops on Pasargade.
mercantilism
huh :think: thats interesting, how many cities you think you need need to make it count ?
I allmoust never use this civic but with a lot of cities (crap land) and Rep it can be rly good, 1GS is slightly better then working a village iirc. SoL in this regard is preety powerfull too, but Demo is v expensive tech as well SoL in terms of :hammers: so ... on normal speed idk is it worth it to bother with it.

Anyway game looks preety good 216:science: @ 275BC with NTT is v impressive however now iam thinking now whats your economy plan for a mid/late game where bulb strategy basicly dosnt work, i can assume that maybe somekind of GA chain does some1 on your Continent have MoM ?
 
Still some cottages in Istanbul? With 2 helper cities I would have imagined you could develop most tiles properly.
What are you going to build in terms of infrastructure? A market in Istanbul, and forges everywhere, I suppose. Any courthouses?
 
Still some cottages in Istanbul? With 2 helper cities I would have imagined you could develop most tiles properly.
What are you going to build in terms of infrastructure? A market in Istanbul, and forges everywhere, I suppose. Any courthouses?
With representation specialists even capital cottages get a lower priority. The northern ones can only be worked by Konya which has completed Moai Statues. During the GA the choice of working coast over cottages was easy. They'll mature eventually. 2/0/1 tile really sucks.

Barracks+granary+forge+library in all cities (except capital). Hammams in the cities with a lot of food where I expect happiness problems later. Won't bother with courthouses just yet, even at 60 hammers. Unfortunately I have 0 of the market luxuries, but even so a market should be good in Istanbul.

huh :think: thats interesting, how many cities you think you need need to make it count ?
I allmoust never use this civic but with a lot of cities (crap land) and Rep it can be rly good, 1GS is slightly better then working a village iirc. SoL in this regard is preety powerfull too, but Demo is v expensive tech as well SoL in terms of :hammers: so ... on normal speed idk is it worth it to bother with it.

Anyway game looks preety good 216:science: @ 275BC with NTT is v impressive however now iam thinking now whats your economy plan for a mid/late game where bulb strategy basicly dosnt work, i can assume that maybe somekind of GA chain does some1 on your Continent have MoM ?
Mercantilism is really strong with representation. I would always go for it with the Pyramids, but even without representation it's an underrated civic. Even the spy specialist could be really good here seeing as Darius has a holy city. Good way to catch up after war. SoL would also be nice as I plan on conquering a lot of land.

Economic plan is to capture a lot of land in the window where the army composition is still useful (basically until rifles) and then see. Going democracy for emancipation+mass cottages is good if you've captured a lot of land. Would also go with the SoL plan. Otherwise there's always the hammer economy.

Joao constructed the Great Wall. Other than that all of the wonders are on the other continent (MoM not yet constructed).
 
I'd like to. I'm sorry to have left you hanging, but I got more busy than expected in late april and may.
I did actually finish the game a while ago, but I didn't have the time or energy to post at the time. Maybe I'll recap in a week or so.
 
Awesome! I hope RL gives you some spare time. As I said, it is a very good write up thus far.
 
Sorry for comment but Im just so happy to get best NTT game result for myself - AD1552 Deity 17 AI Conquest on Huge Mara Archip-Archip with 760K points :D
Spoiler :
Ended up with ~120 cities, only 12 were built by me... Start (early 1 or both way access - Archip-archip maps are most random and interesting I know :D ) next to Monty, Gilga, Ragnar, Boudica, Washington and Ramesses (Hindu), Toku, Isabella (Budism), Asoka and non-Mao Chinese guy (Judaism) so.. kind of "scary" but same time "full attention to details" :D
One thing now is more than sure - there is 1 "bottle-neck" technology for AI that kind of gives huge advantage to human - Replaceable Parts. I don't know why but almost any AI delay it soooo late (too low military "value" for strong military leaders?!) that in this game I killed exactly 2 Rifles :D They are good enough with tech tree down-side (Grenadiers/Cannons) and early Curraissers but with correct attack order (so can get capitulation 1-2 turns before Rifling and so on all around the world) everything else is just a minor problem as long as take care about potential odds (hills/castle/stuff)...
 
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