Let's play Izzy

[shakabrade]

I decided to join, although I don't have any idea what I want to achieve with this game.
I guess I am just trying to relax from deity. (3-4 losses in a row , my confidence low)

Played until 1000AD.

Spoiler :

Liberalism race is long secured, however I tried Economics race and I lost it by one turn from Hannibal ofcourse. Economics is great because of FM if not for free GM, and that is what can you see in my bpt (subtract at least 120bpt for GA).

I didn't build any wonder but NE. Ran mixed economy, spawnbusted all land, settled agressively as you can see. Didn't have luck with galleys, there were just crazy amounts of them and they won too many battles and pillaged too many nets so my future Globe Theatre city and all but one coastal city are underdeveloped.

Didn't trade too much so everyone's tech pace is surprsingly slow for this date. I am still not sure how I want to win. I only know it won't be conquistadors, cause I dunno, I could have less cities for that; and a better date. Cavalry domination/conquest and Space race still run a tight race in my mind.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

It's five cities So I guess it's OK. Or maybe you don't count Cordoba, since it's a little crappy place.

Oh I'm sure I tried to count it. I just failed...

And which Wonders would you prefer?

I forgot I failed the Mausoleum as well. Parthenon and MoM are the two wonders I missed and would've liked to get.
The Pyramids as well but to a lesser extent, since I cottaged heavily. Instead, I just went for earlier than usual Democracy.
Parthenon would have beefed up GPP generation and probably netted 1 or 2 additional GPs.
NB : I got marble. Otherwise I'd have sticked with the stone wonders.

Hanging Gardens also deserve a special mention. Approaching 10 cities and suffering health problems in Madrid, the wonder would've helped.
That I got without particularly trying was the University of Sankore. But then again, with enough cities, temples/monasteries and libraries/universities, the yield from the wonder is fine. One kinda needs to be in the AP religion to stack bonuses on the religious buildings.

Of course I will go Caste System. I wouldn't research CoL, if not. Rather Currency.
I just wonder, if going Currency won't strip me of TGL. Yet I will go for Currency first anyway.

Indeed, Currency first may make you lose TGL. Currency vs Litt is tricky. I wouldn't know how to balance those techs, exactly.
My guess is that if your commerce situation isn't too good and you plan to keep on settling new cities, Currency should come first.
If, otoh, your commerce situation is ok and some of your cities have spare production, then Litterature first may make sense. If you're racing for Litt, then it also makes sense.
If you're racing for something further (say Music/Civil Service), then Currency gains an edge vs Litterature.

Hard to tell, really. At least for me.
Put otherwise, a thing to consider is that Currency yields immediate benefits (trade routes) whereas Litterature a) requires an investment (hammers) and b) its benefits are delayed.
TGL is great for winning the Liberalism race, notably. It will net at least one GP (hopefully a scientist) to bulb into Education.
Tech costs really jump around Education (Nationalism/Banking) so it's common to halt research before going for those. However, the longer one does, the more time the AIs have to catch up (or run away).
Halting research after Education is much better than right before. And bulbs help in that matter.

 

[zig_zac]

Oh right, let me start by saying I am seriously pissed off. By AI, and by my incompetence.

Diplo:

As I said, Charlie was in WHEOOHRN mode; I just hoped he won't attack me, but I switched to his religion, and gave him tribute, than two expensive techs. I sucked up to him so much I was disgusted with myself. Begged some Gold off him, and got him to Friendly. I was able to drag this to around 1 AD., when he attacked anyway.

Question:
Is it that once an AI decide to attack me, it will (if I won't direct it elsewhere)?
Charlie has two other neighbors: with Roosevelt he was pleased before he was pleased with me; with Willem he had common border, but: "we would have nothing to gain" diplo text, when I tried to bribe them into war.

I prepared to this war half heartedly, but it was enough. Charlie is even worse warmonger, than me. His armies of Chariots and Swords crushed on my Walls. Nobody had gained anything, and after 300 years he agreed peace without gains for anyone.

Shaky conclusion:
my settling pattern, especially Cordoba, made me an obstacle for Charlie, and leaving him space made his expansion directed at me. Is it viable?

All this hinders the comparison between our saves, and me learning from this. It was my purpose for the whole game.

Tech path:

Currency>Literature>Music (first) >Philosophy (bulbed, somewhere here)> CS> Nationalism> Education (half bulbed) > Liberalism 840 AD> MT.

Wonders:

TGL, MoM, quite a bit of failgold

Financial advisor:

Spoiler :

Tech trades:

Spoiler :

Conclusions so far

I've opened saves of games posted here, and noticed, that my infra is in worse shape, than yours. But it's probably the result of war with Charlie. Yet I always thought I slightly overbuild infra. Good to know that's not necessarily true.

The biggest lesson for me so far is settling pattern, I suppose.

Ways of war:

I certainly have to wage war with Conquistadors. What's the best way to get them fast?

Option 1: Slavery + Police State and whipping population down? I have not so much Infra, switching off Caste System would be troublesome.

I thought about:
Option 2:
GA with my saved GA. Generating GM's, running US, rush-buying.
Only after that: Option 1, if necessary.

Option 3: going for Taj Mahal? I was cut off Marble, but successful it would give me even more production. I have MoM, so maybe it's good. Than running more of Option 2.

Further tech path:
just going to Rifles?

Infra
I plan delaying Universities everywhere but Madrit, to get an army quicker. Let me know, if it's a major blunder.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I took a look at your save.
The lack of workers is showing the hard way. Bad, bad, bad

I guess one doesn't need an army of worker when running Caste + Rep. However, lacking in improved tiles makes it hard to switch out. Indeed.
Caste System is workshops-friendly. If you want to stay in Caste + Rep while building an army, then workshops and their associated techs are needed. Workshops require quite a lot of worker turns, though.
Guilds should be available for trade soon. Chemistry is pretty close by, down the tech tree. Not that I recommend that you go that route, just saying that 4H workshops are closeby (5H in Golden Age).

I think Police State + Slavery will be the most efficient way to build up your army.
Make sure you complete Forges everywhere.
Then each pop whipped into a unit will be worth 45H. A Conquistador costs 100H so the 2pop whip will be enabled after 10H are invested and overflow will be maxed at 54H invested. It looks like a convenient window.
Which means you're basically guaranteed 1 unit / city every 3-4 turns. In Caste System + Rep, you'd be closer to 8-10 turns per unit. I'm not sure how it would work with Cavalries but it shouldn't be bad either.

Regarding Universal Suffrage rushbuying, I'm not sure how much an army would cost. I fear a Conquistador may cost something like 200g. But, really, I don't know.


@ Taj Mahal : it's horribly expensive without marble. If we're speaking war preparations, it costs 7 Conquistadores.
@ National Epic : Madrid seems like a poor choice to build it. The 2 fish+corn city up north seems perfect (could also host Globe Theater). Barcelona could also make sense, due to the presence of the Great Library (congratz).
@ Cottaged Madrid : you could have worked the 2 northern riverside grassland with another city and, thus, externalize some cottage growth.
@ Golden Age : me got no guess. What I know is that GA + MoM is cool while GA + savage whips is uncool.
@ Tech Path : Riffling for a Cav follow up, why not ? Economics, why not ? Sci Meth -> Bio/Comm/Phys, why not ? If you intend to research for a while, then Economics first makes sense (same argument as Currency : no hammer cost, immediate yield).
@ Military plans : 2 options come to mind. Going round through America, HRE, Dutchland or straight through the Dutch, leaving your Buddhist buddies in peace.
@ Your scout : you got it, good ! I can understand why you didn't get him earlier, with Charlie attacking and all.
@ Your diplo questions : I don't know the answers, though I don't think Cordoba is especially threatening to Charlie.

 

[zig_zac]

I took a look at your save.
The lack of workers is showing the hard way. Bad, bad, bad

I guess one doesn't need an army of worker when running Caste + Rep. However, lacking in improved tiles makes it hard to switch out. Indeed.
Caste System is workshops-friendly. If you want to stay in Caste + Rep while building an army, then workshops and their associated techs are needed. Workshops require quite a lot of worker turns, though.
Guilds should be available for trade soon. Chemistry is pretty close by, down the tech tree. Not that I recommend that you go that route, just saying that 4H workshops are closeby (5H in Golden Age).

Charlie destroyed 2 or 3. I will rebuild them.

@ National Epic : Madrid seems like a poor choice to build it. The 2 fish+corn city up north seems perfect (could also host Globe Theater). Barcelona could also make sense, due to the presence of the Great Library (congratz).

True. I didn't give to much thought to this. Just wanted to have it fast.

@ Cottaged Madrid : you could have worked the 2 northern riverside grassland with another city and, thus, externalize some cottage growth.

True again.
Nice catches, thanks.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update tomorrow. In the meantime:

The day we don't meet Hernan Cortes

Spoiler :

Joanna: My Lady, a revolt! Hernan Cortes gathered people from all cities of the empire, and is marching on capital.
Isabella: No way. Hernan Cortes is my faithfull subject.
Joanna: Oh, he is. He claims his only purpose is to remove that dumbass zig_zac. He claim because of him Spanish Empire is weak, and barely holds from Charlemagne's assault. He says he's building fancy wonders, instead of training troops. That with Elephants we could conquer our fair share of the world.He bought one Elephant to present him to the queen, and he's riding him.
Isabella: What is our fair share of the world?
Joanna: A majority.
Isabella: What a smart man Hernan Cortes is.
Joanna: He certainly is.
zig_zac: Excuse me. What will happen to me?
Joanna: You will be hanged! And in any moment now! How do you feel, ha?
zig_zac: You care for my feelings?
Joanna: Yes! I hope you're scared to the death!
zig_zac: They couldn't hang me than. That wouldn't be polite of me, if I strip them of such pleasure.
Joanna: Who cares how you die?
zig_zac: Yes, indeed. Your Majesty, I served the best interest of Spain.
Isabella: Oh, I suppose so, you was faithful. On the other hand, half of the world...
Joanna: More than half.
zig_zac: Promised. As they say, nobody will give you more, than I can promise you.
Isabella: I don't know. I must think.
Joanna: Cool. And Cortes in the meantime will hang zig_zac. Maybe on the top of his fancy Pyramids.
zig_zac: I must talk to him.
Joanna: Good luck with it (and here comes sarcastic, slightly demonic laugh, which maybe doesn't suit otherwise nice, young lady. Oh, maybe zig_zac has some talent to get the worst from people)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joanna: My lady, that criminal zig_zac killed Cortes!
zig_zac: No, I just asked him a question.
Isabella: Yeah, he was never fast thinker, but I didn't know it could kill. Explain.
zig_zac: Well, he was riding the Elephant, to make a greater entry. And the gates of the Palace aren't suited for the mounts of this kind. He would have just fit in, if he leaned down.
Isabella: So?
zig_zac: I asked him, if he will bow to me. He said never.
Isabella: He always was unbendable at the point of his honor.
Joanna: He hit in the wall and his head fell of. It was horrible.
zig_zac: How sensitive of you.
Joanna: Murderer!
Isabella: And what about supporters of Cortes?
zig_zac: They were quite lost. I advised them to cook the Elephant. There's a fine party outside the Palace.
Isabella: A party is always good. But what about my half of the world?
zig_zac: We'll get it, though not with Elephants. I mean, they would have to be called Elephanquistadors.
Isabella: Right, it wouldn't work. But you promised.
zig_zac: I remember that, my lady.

 

[zig_zac]

I went for two consecutive GA, just had to use those GP - Great Prophet, Great Artist, what else to do with them? With MoM? I've burned Great Scientist for Printing Press, but that's all. So I've just built a lot of Workshops. Improved infra, to offset going off Representation.

Civics:
Switched to Police State, Theocracy, Caste System. Stayed in Bureaucracy.
Currently running Emancipation, and Free Market


Techs:
Gunpowder>Printing Press (bulb)> Guilds> Theology (couldn't trade it on fair terms)> Banking (don't really remember, how I got it)> Economics

Started Chemistry, but had to research Democracy - Emancipation kicked in.

War

Attacked Charlie in 1110 AD. Things went quite smoothly, just capped him.
Got 4 cities, a shrine with +35 gold, and Hanging Gardens.

Next to go is Roosevelt. He does have Gunpowder already, but it won't be any major obstacle, I think. He also has Statue of Zeus.

Willem van Oranje, my third neighbor, doesn't have neither Gunpowder, nor MT. Not even Guilds. Yet he has 12 cities, so I don't know about him. He can tech quickly.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Sounds your game is going good, zig_zac, but... we want screenshots !

Did you send Hernan to his death already ?

 

[zig_zac]

Have played for a little longer.

Really quick re-cap:

Roosevelt capped, Willem capped. Got second shrine (+ 45 gold), Statue of Zeus, and Sistine Chapel, which will be extremely useful to change culture of my new cities.

Teched to Rifling, Huayna Cupac capped. He had Cuirass and Cannons, but not enough.

I've taken The Statue of Liberty in Cuzco, and I have 23 cities. Since I've just lost free scientists from TGL, it would be nice replacement.
He also has Kashi Viswanath in Cuzco, +38 gold.


Techs:

Chemistry finished> Corporation and Scientific Method traded> Astronomy (thought it could be a trait bait, fail)> Replacable Parts>Rifling>1 turn from Communism. State Property is in order

Generally speaking my research speed is not so hot, but it's improving.

tech trades screen:

Spoiler :

Hannibal isn't that far away.

Great People
Got three, can start Golden Age. I just don't know, if GE is worth burning for this. He can help with wonders. OTOH: I don't need Wonders.

Sounds your game is going good, zig_zac, but... we want screenshots !

I don't really know, what other screen to post. My economy is recovering, some cities are in revolt. Financial advisor screen would be misleading. Political map doesn't fit the screen. Maybe general view?

Spoiler :

Victory type
I've surpassed the population limit for Domination Victory, but will come short of the land. Don't know, how to end this. I'm not that bloodthirsty, maybe Diplo.


Thanks for everyone shadowing, commenting, and reading. I think I won't bother you with starting new thread anymore. Just will play Sons of Monarchy, or Immortal University
Or maybe a little story in the appropriate section of the forum. Speaking of stories:

Did you send Hernan to his death already ?

On the mystery of the death of Hernan Cortes

Spoiler :

There is no mystery, only a failure of communication. I blame my language skills. Embarrassing.
Cortes is dead enough. Can't kill him more even, if I wanted to.

He was riding on Elephant, through the gate.
The gate was not high enough, he had to lean down, to fit in.
In that very moment zig_zac asked him, if he will take a bow before him.
Cortes said never, and he was sitting straight. His head didn't fit in the gate.
Quoting Joanna: Cortes' head fell off. It was horrible!

I thought it was so great situational joke! Apparently, not

 

[soundjata]

The joke was totally funny for me at least

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Hernan Cortes :
Really, that's my bad... Don't blame it upon yourself. I have a terrible memory and seem to have forgotten everything after zig-zac left queen Isabella. Even the cooking part ! Yeah, that's a shame. I just remembered an unbearable feeling of dramatic suspense and eluded the rest.
I laughed while reading, though, and there were no misunderstanding
The storytelling piece on the first page was fun as well. Meanwhile is always a good start for a story.


@ Victory condition :
Hannibal seems like he can put up some resistance. Ramesses should capitulate very fast.
If Domination isn't convenient, and you don't want to mess with Hanni to get Conquest, then... beeline Mass Media ?
Depending on your stack's size, Conquest may be the fastest way to close the game.
In my shadow, I felt I was lucky enough not to have to mess with Carthage to get Domination, so I get your point. If you want to avoid that, next time, kill 1 or 2 of the first AIs you conquer.

@ Possible screenshots :
- the stack or the military advisor, sorted by unit type.
- some demographics ; statistics sorted by units built, building built.
- capital, HE city, a fine prize (shrine ?).
- Well, anything that pleases you, really.

Generally speaking my research speed is not so hot, but it's improving.

Until now, I always have that problem as well when running workshops. Fortunately, that "problem" always happen with a 20 cities Empire so it doesn't put winning at stake.
I'm sure there's a way around it but haven't sorted it out yet.
Maybe it requires to get more gold (by whatever means) and to devote more cities to building research ?

Thanks for everyone shadowing, commenting, and reading. I think I won't bother you with starting new thread anymore. Just will play Sons of Monarchy, or Immortal University
Or maybe a little story in the appropriate section of the forum.

Please, post a game anytime you feel like it. If only for lurkers (says he who never started a thread here... )

I thought it was so great situational joke! Apparently, not

It was very funny.

 

[zig_zac]

@ Hernan Cortes :

@ Victory condition :
Hannibal seems like he can put up some resistance. Ramesses should capitulate very fast.
If Domination isn't convenient, and you don't want to mess with Hanni to get Conquest, then... beeline Mass Media ?
Depending on your stack's size, Conquest may be the fastest way to close the game.
In my shadow, I felt I was lucky enough not to have to mess with Carthage to get Domination, so I get your point. If you want to avoid that, next time, kill 1 or 2 of the first AIs you conquer.

Remesses and Hannibal both got Rifling, it would be tech parity war. I could win by producing a lot of troops, but it would be so cumbersome. I will win anyway, and don't consider Diplomacy worse VC. And Space I consider the coolest BTW.
Couldn't kill Charlie, he would vassal to Roosevelt. Couldn't kill Roosevelt, he had an island city. Couldn't kill Willem, he got Rifling.
Yeah, I could have kill HC. But didn't want to fight Culture pressure.
Also they're nice guys really

Shame you haven't posted more of your saves.

@ Possible screenshots :
- the stack or the military advisor, sorted by unit type.
- some demographics ; statistics sorted by units built, building built.
- capital, HE city, a fine prize (shrine ?).
- Well, anything that pleases you, really.

I will write it down.
.

Until now, I always have that problem as well when running workshops. Fortunately, that "problem" always happen with a 20 cities Empire so it doesn't put winning at stake.
I'm sure there's a way around it but haven't sorted it out yet.
Maybe it requires to get more gold (by whatever means) and to devote more cities to building research ?

Probably.
I intend to go SP - Representation, grow cities to get specialists, and after getting factories I will produce Wealth. Should work fine. Hannibal won't stand a chance.
And there still are cottages built by predecessors.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Shame you haven't posted more of your saves.

Oh, I could. The saves PeteJ and Shakabrade posted are solid and kinda similar but, for the sake of exhaustiveness...

- 475 BC : First save I have. HRE & America are warring.. Scottland Yard is incoming. Monuments are built to unlock the SoZ.
- 25 AD : Backfilling is in progress. Madrid is growing in anticipation of Civil Service.
- 400 AD : Education is researched. Backfilling is being completed.
- 700 AD : Nationalism + GA.
- 860 AD : Prepping for war. Elephants are in queue where the cities are ready (cute).
- 1520 AD : End game. 100 Cuirassiers built ; about 50 remaining. Lots of infra bought via US + Kremlin.

(Other saves I have are :
- 1120 AD : America is dead)
- 1240 AD : HRE lost a few cities, war in progress
- 1470 AD : Netherland and Inca have capped.)

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Next saves (3 per post max).

 

[Silverbow]

I gave this one a supremely lazy try.

Libbed MT in 920 AD:

Spoiler :

But got lazy and opted not to war, winning UN in 1675 AD instead:

Spoiler :

No wars, cities garrisoned by warriors through and through, with two archers being the military pinnacle of Spain.

 

[zig_zac]

Saw the saves. My cities look poor in comparison (more micromanagement maybe? Or it's because that unwanted war). Anyway both of you kick ass. Thanks for posting.

 

[GenerallyGreat]

Fun map for my first game back in a year or so. I got 1480 domination using mostly conquisitors? I upgraded a bunch to Cavs because I had a bunch of cash but in most cities I didn't bother making the switch to building Cavs. Such a badass UU!