Let's Read the Bible Once

[Rashiminos]

Same with Judaism, which believes in the same god as Christianity but rejects Jesus as the prophesied Messiah.

I find this claim to be more interesting of late.

People always talk about the importance of Free Will, so why weren't the wealthy couple granted this very important freedom?

Who says they were not?

 

[Kaitzilla]

First time reader of this thread - I am really impressed that you were reading 5 chapters of Genesis per day and in King James English on top of that!

I am reading from the Holman Christian Standard Bible and my reading goes in fits and starts. It will probably take me a couple or few years to get through the Old Testament.



Civ 4 comes and goes for me. Currently playing Baldur's Gate TOTSC over here and on a third consecutive day of rest from that.



Regarding persecutions - I will take this as a reminder to pick up a copy of Barnabas Aid.

You can add to your list America's downward spiral.

No doubt you will pick it up again right where you left off.

I have not gone through all the posts in this thread. It was already 14 pages long by the time I found it. When I think of burning questions, I will ask:

1. According to Scripture, is a 6000 year-old earth a take-it-or-leave-it proposition? Can an Old Earth Theory be reconciled with Scripture through gaps and intellectual gymnastics and Relativity theory? Can a Young Earth Theory be reconciled with modern day science? Where does Uranium come from? Does the unleaded gasoline in my car have Carbon-14?

I note Genesis 1:16 references the creation of the Sun and the Moon, and this was already on the fourth day.

2. As an attempt to answer your question about Cain and where did his wife come from - Chapter 4 records the birth of Cain and Abel. Genesis 5:4 says he fathered sons and daughters. I would say that Adam and Eve had daughters along with Cain and Abel, but they were not mentioned in Chapter 4, where Cain took a wife.

Going forward to Genesis 29:31-35, you have Jacob and Leah having four sons, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah. Then she stopped having children. Chapter 34 tells the story about Dinah, a daughter Leah bore through Jacob. (EDIT: First mentioned Genesis 30:21.... ooops )

3. When did the Biblical Flood occur? Creationists claim all these fossils and rock formations were created by the flood waters coming and going. Evolutionists claim it was millions of years of erosion and there were many mass extinction events. (Next time I am really bored maybe I will look up how to calculate rates of erosion and abrasion and see if the Creationist claim that the Grand Canyon was dug by 5 miles of water receding over 54 days or so is physically possible.)

4. What happened to the Dinosaurs? Did God tell Noah (Genesis 6:19) to go get two of each kind and put them in his Ark? And did Noah look at Mister T. Rex and shake his head and say "nuh-uh."

5. Chapter 10 is also known as the Table of Nations. Where did the Native Americans come from?

Genesis 10:6 "Ham's sons: Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan." Your translation calls Egypt "Mizraim." Wait a minute - Egypt was a man?

Genesis 10:14 is your first mention of where the Philistines come from.

6. When did the Tower of Babel event of Chapter 11 occur? What was the world population at this time?

7. Who built the Great Pyramid at Giza? It is much more sophisticated than the technology we say was available to the people living there at the time. It certainly does not work like you are playing Civ 4 and research Masonry, build a Stone Quarry and chop down a bunch of trees.

That's all the questions I can think of so far. After this, we are into Chapter 12 and my current reading is up to Chapter 29.

Thanks for the Barnabas link . I'll check into it.

1) As far as I know, since God can evidently violate the laws of physics at will, the Earth is however old He wants it to be.

2) Ya, women don't seem to get mentioned at all in the lineages.

3) No idea. For all intents and purposes, it was like a giant reset of the Earth though.
Makes me think of that movie Waterworld.

4) As far as I know, no one in biblical times knew about dinosaurs.
Although, if there were giants in the old days, maybe there were giant lizards?

5) http://www.crystalinks.com/nativeamcreation.html

In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz (Feathered Serpent). These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being. They thought Earth, and there it was. They thought mountains, and so there were. They thought trees, and sky, and animals etc, and each came into being. But none of these things could praise them, so they formed more advanced beings of clay. But these beings fell apart when they got wet, so they made beings out of wood, but they proved unsatisfactory and caused trouble on the earth. The gods sent a great flood to wipe out these beings, so that they could start over. With the help of Mountain Lion, Coyote, Parrot, and Crow they fashioned four new beings. These four beings performed well and are the ancestors of the Quiché In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz (Feathered Serpent).

These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being. They thought earth, and there it was. They thought mountains, and so there were. They thought trees, and sky, and animals etc, and each came into being. But none of these things could praise them, so they formed more advanced beings of clay. But these beings fell apart when they got wet, so they made beings out of wood, but they proved unsatisfactory and caused trouble on the earth. The gods sent a great flood to wipe out these beings, so that they could start over. With the help of Mountain Lion, Coyote, Parrot, and Crow they fashioned four new beings. These four beings performed well and are the ancestors of the Quich.

In the beginning there was only darkness. Suddenly a small bearded man, the One Who Lives Above, appeared rubbing his eyes as if just awakened. The man, the Creator, rubbed his hands together and there appeared a little girl, Girl-Without-Parents. The creator rubbed his face with his hands and there stood the Sun-God. Again Creator rubbed his sweaty brow and from his hands dropped Small-boy. Now there were four gods.Then he created Tarantula, Big Dipper, Wind, Lightning-Maker and Lightning-Rumbler. All four gods shook hands so that their sweat mixed together. Then Creator rubbed his palms together from which fell a small round, brown ball. They took turns kicking it and with each kick the ball grew larger. Creator told Wind to go inside the ball and blow it up. Then Tarantula spun a black cord which he attached to the ball and went to the east pulling as hard as he could.

He repeated this exercise with a blue cord to the south, a yellow cord to the west and a white cord to the north. When he was done the brown ball had become the earth. The Creator again rubbed his hands and there appeared Hummingbird. "Fly all over this earth," said Creator to Hummingbird, "and tell us what you see." When he returned Hummingbird reported that there was water on the west side. But the earth rolled and bounced, so Creator made four giant posts one each black, blue, yellow and white and had Wind place them at the four cardinal points of the earth. The earth was now still. The creation of the people, animals, birds, trees, etc takes place hereafter.

There's that flood again.

What I want to know is, where are the 900 year old Pharaohs in the records? Not one Methuselah among them?

6) Tower of Babel?
Everyone spoke the same language, so I'd say 100 years from now when everyone speaks English on the space elevator and The Doctor shows up in a time machine and God has to sort the whole mess out to preserve the space-time continuum.

7) I'm sure the Egyptians built the Pyramids.
Essentially it is stacking stones on top of each other. I'm sure it was possible for the ancients to accomplish.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/pyramid3.htm






Thanks for the encouragement Harv! I see there is quite the demand for this thread to continue reading.

I'm glad to see you are first time reading it too

Hopefully we can both get through the Bible with enough motivation and understanding.

 

[Rashiminos]

Yea but satan is an angel thrown out of heaven. I don't know if he has free will. That's what supposedly makes human beings special and made in god's image, is the free will thing and the ability to comprehend good and evil.

Satan wanted someone else's job and got told to bugger off. Maybe it understands "good" and "evil" well enough, or free will, for that matter.

lying forfeits your Free Will.

There might be a connection between lying and free will, but probably not as presented here.

And in that spirit I can only conclude that if there is a God, it is fine with me not believing in it. Since I have nothing to show for.

It's quite possible.

It's evil for God to end the life of someone who doesn't and never will believe him? I guess you could come to that conclusion if you only take that one incident by itself. But again, bigger picture, maybe it's merciful. Maybe the person he decided to kill was going to be a mass murderer, but God ending his life prevented that. There's all kinds of scenarios that can play out - it's kinda presumptuous for us to categorically call him evil just because we have no way of seeing the entire picture of what he's doing.

Maybe the person believed in something that led to his demise.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Size/mass is less of an encumbrance in a lesser gravity field. There would also be less fall-related deaths(2).

I'm still not seeing any links to reputable, peer-reviewed sources. And I was replying to this:

A smaller faster spinning earth would allow humans to live longer and reptiles to grow larger.

What do fewer fall-related deaths have to do with the size of a dinosaur?

... but the water was already here when God begins "creating").

Well, if God didn't create the water, where did it come from (since it was apparently already there before he created anything)?

6) Tower of Babel?
Everyone spoke the same language, so I'd say 100 years from now when everyone speaks English on the space elevator and The Doctor shows up in a time machine and God has to sort the whole mess out to preserve the space-time continuum.

They'd better get a move-on then, since the Daleks are scheduled to invade in 2164.

 

[Rashiminos]

I'm still not seeing any links to reputable, peer-reviewed sources. And I was replying to this:

Excuse me. I thought you would love to see peer-reviewed sources. Maybe you could go look for them?

What do fewer fall-related deaths have to do with the size of a dinosaur?

I don't know. Maybe you could tell me? That was not the connection I was making.

I don't believe in Free Will in the first place, at least not in terms of us being able to do something and it completely taking God by surprise.

Doesn't that make you sort of like a machine?

God gives us the ability to make choices within the confines of his predetermined will.

Nice polychotomy.

The Bible claims it was authored completely by God himself and simply penned by many different men.

The Bible claims many things.

I tend to think an evil God wouldn't offer us a way of forgiveness after we had sinned against him. He would have just destroyed everything right then and there.

Why not?

Why would this evil God destroy everything?

Well, what reason do we have that they at any point occurred at a different rate?

There was this catastrophism vs uniformitarianism debate...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Excuse me. I thought you would love to see peer-reviewed sources. Maybe you could go look for them?

This is no different from any other time on CFC when one person makes a statement that is questionable, or for some other reason, someone else wants to see where the basis for the statement comes from.

I asked for links to peer-reviewed sources. That means I'm asking you to post them. Since I have no idea where to look for them (not being acquainted with bizarre creationism ideas that masquerade as science), you are the one who ought to be providing sources to back up your claims.

I don't know. Maybe you could tell me? That was not the connection I was making.

You're the one who brought it up, so you tell it.


BTW, folks, I majored in physical/cultural anthropology and minored in physical geography in college, and have studied astronomy both formally and informally for most of my life. I'll admit that I'm no mathematician, but I can spot BS when I see it.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I always thought that the "Eve was created using Adam's ribs" thing was because people seem to think that men have fewer ribs than women (which is not true).

On the contrary man has something extra: nipples
The thing with the rib(life force) can be taken only as a methaphor. I would see it more as some form of psychological game/methaphor. Woman is part of your life but her role as on physical plane is not as yours but in certain respects subservient. On the physical plane woman represents the more passive and down to Earth aspects of life. On the spiritual plane is the contrary. She is Shakti/Mother power - the dynamic aspect of God. While male aspect of God is static.

Regarding the Eve creation, there is a nice joke i heard once:

God: Adam, i decided to make a wife for you. She will be good and smart, love you honestly and care for you, never try to harm you and always be well-mannered.

Adam: Great, how will that happen?

God: I will make her by cutting off one of your arms and one of your legs.

Adam: (after thinking for a while) What can you make with just one rib?

You know why first man and woman where not Chinese? Because they would have eaten the snake....

I tried looking up that word on dictionary.com. The site never heard of it.

However you can still use your brain. Before the advent of man human nature was something supernatural. Once man came to being human nature established itself as something natural. So you can generally say that anything below human level is for man infranatural to his standard. Likewise there is no reason to think that evolution has all of sudden stopped and that what we call supernatural and impossible today will not be just natural and possible in the future.

I wish people would stop using the terms "bible" and "god" as if they are something which has to be related.

The ignorance lies in solidified dogma that only Judeo-Christian tradition in spite of its own colossal inner rift has somewhat monopoly on Truth. That the omnipresent absolute is in its manifestation limited into single possible one. What a bunch of jokes ...

I think that even Polyphemus was less evil than the god of the old testament, and he even commited hubris himself against the gods he believed in. At least in the case of the Dodecatheon there was no sick idea of a deity which on the one hand destroys everyone it wants to, on the other keeps arguing it is the pinnacle of ethics. Such an act is far more reminiscent of a horrible parent.

You are comparing two different time periods. OT religion was barbaric so was its God. If the standard of civilization is low you cant expect it to somehow reflect highest moral values all of sudden.

If a deity exists, i am quite sure it would be something far more important and intelligent and complicated and inspiring and a source of knowledge and creativity and a siren which never stops its song towards the travelers who happen to pass through any of the straits where its likeness or moving statue still stands.

I agree. Only dont forget that what you or I may view as higher ideal will be something barbaric judged by the distant future generations...

 

[Rashiminos]

I asked for links to peer-reviewed sources. That means I'm asking you to post them.

I'm refusing that particular request for some reason.

Since I have no idea where to look for them (not being acquainted with bizarre creationism ideas that masquerade as science), you are the one who ought to be providing sources to back up your claims.

I did provide some hints. Maybe you could track them to (a) source(s).

You're the one who brought it up, so you tell it.

I wasn't emphasizing a relation between fall-related deaths and large dinosaurs, so you're the one who brought it "up." I could provide a relation, if you want.

I'll admit that I'm no mathematician, but I can spot BS when I see it.

I'll admit that I am a mathematician.

 

[timtofly]

Satan wanted someone else's job and got told to bugger off. Maybe it understands "good" and "evil" well enough.

If satan had his will, every one would be an atheist, until he switched his position and claimed he was God, then every one would have to be an asatanist to get satan out of that position.


@thread and Kaitzilla


If we take away the variables of carbon14 dating, we can go back no further than 10,000 years, although from caves they estimate 45,000 years. So basing things on that, the carbon method does not match up to the cosmology record. We then get into other radiometric dating. As Borachio pointed out we have to make assumptions on what actually happened billions of years ago and then assume nothing interfered to change such properties of the test "subjects" at all between then and now.

When it comes to cosmology, the light from stars is heading toward us while the stars themselves have been expanding away from us and perhaps at accelerating speeds. Every one views the big bang as a small infinite "point" in time 14 billion years ago. All I claim is that it was not a small infinite "point". The stars were already millions of light years or even billions apart at the beginning. I already stated that there are galaxies out there that we cannot see, so going back to their beginning already puts us past a point 14 billion years ago. The 14 billion years only accounts for what we think/see via the waves of light patterns out there. I have no problem with God allowing us to see stars that are 14 billion light years away. I personally do not view current space and time as being perfect, and think that there was an undeterminable length of time before this solar system or any for that matter started to go "down hill" around 6000 or so years ago.

As a foot note, the ancient/perfect humans were never said to be sinners before the Flood. It is said that their imaginations were only evil continually. It sounds like they gave up on morals and let the chips fall as they may. It was Adam who disobeyed God in Adam's own perfect little place on earth, that caused Adam to loose a great and perfect life style. He had to make his own way in life. We are not told much how this effected the other humans, other than they did not outright disobey God, they more than likely just forgot God, like Christians have 2000 years after Jesus walked the earth. Although Christians started fighting and/or voting their own lifestyles within 300 years of Jesus. I would agree with atheist, that God is not very "hands on" when it comes to his existence.

 

[Rashiminos]

Isn't "Inspired" the correct term? I am sure it wasn't dictated by God, and thus suspect of all human limitations.

Maybe dictation can be a form of inspiration.

If satan had his will, every one would be an atheist, until he switched his position and claimed he was God, then every one would have to be an asatanist to get satan out of that position.

Even if Satan has will, how can it force everyone to be an athiest?

As a foot note, the ancient/perfect humans were never said to be sinners before the Flood.

It probably can be inferred that they were.

If he was just playing games, he would have just made a bunch of unrelated rules that we have to follow to get to heaven.

Interesting...

I've read some convoluted explanation about how to reconcile astronomy and a young earth. I can't honestly remember the details of it now.

Maybe the two aren't reconcilable because of flaws in one or both of them.

 

[classical_hero]

4) As far as I know, no one in biblical times knew about dinosaurs.
Although, if there were giants in the old days, maybe there were giant lizards?

That is because the word 'dinosaur' is a word made up in modern times to describe these creatures. So obviusly they wouldn't describe them as being dinosaurs in any ancient literature. But consider the Behemoth and the Leviathan. The Behemoth has a tail like a cedar. Can you name a creature alive right now that fits that description? The description of the Leviathan is nothing like a creature living today.

 

[timtofly]

Even if Satan has will, how can it force everyone to be an athiest?

It probably can be inferred that they were.

What forces people to be atheist now?

We can infer anything. What is your definition of sin? If having an evil imagination is sin, we are all in trouble? God knew that the flood was coming and Noah even warned people for 100 years. What would be their excuse? They had no faith? Faith is not just trusting in a God no one can see. Faith is the result of obeying what we do not understand, and when it happens, we have the hindsight of faith.

 

[Berzerker]

Well, if God didn't create the water, where did it come from (since it was apparently already there before he created anything)?

From the solar nebula and exploding stars. Genesis deals with our world and our world is far younger than the universe, thats why there's already stuff here when God shows up to create the dry land and life.

That is because the word 'dinosaur' is a word made up in modern times to describe these creatures. So obviusly they wouldn't describe them as being dinosaurs in any ancient literature. But consider the Behemoth and the Leviathan. The Behemoth has a tail like a cedar. Can you name a creature alive right now that fits that description? The description of the Leviathan is nothing like a creature living today.

There's a feasible theory ancient peoples found the fossils of dinosaurs and these monsters became part of our mythology.

 

[Rashiminos]

1) You pick & choose. You're like "this word had multiple meanings, so maybe there's a different way to interpret this troublesome passage". Which, fair enough, but you're assuming *every other word was translated correctly, just not these troublesome ones*. I mean, how do we know that "God" wasn't translated incorrectly. Or "fish" or "table" or "son"? Those could make a huge difference.

We do not know.

3) It doesn't matter, it's still magic. Salt/Vapor? Who cares? You're still telling people a woman turned into vapor for looking backwards at an inopportune time. Like that makes it more believable? I had trouble with her turning into salt, but I'm totally fine with vapor. Oh, ok, God took part of Adam's "life essence" instead of his "rib" to make Eve? Now it makes sense. It simply doesn't matter if 1 & 2 are true.

One of the reasons I think a strict literal interpretation is not all that helpful.

"Those words have multiple meanings" actually hurts the Bible's case, not helps it.

Could you elaborate on that?

 

[Kaitzilla]

I had a religious math teacher once. From Russia I think.


He was struck by the fact that there are 105 boys born for every 100 girls.

I will try to paraphrase what I think I remember him saying:

"Boys are dumb, and tend to die off doing dumb things, so that by the time they are ready to get married there are roughly equal numbers of them to the girls. It's like God knew to make a few extra at the start!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio

I always enjoyed this observation


I was also intrigued by the eye argument, but the evolutionists have now convinced me that it was possible to evolve one given time.


Link to video.

 

[Rashiminos]

What forces people to be atheist now?

Maybe nothing does.

What is your definition of sin?

Instead of talking about an explicit definition of sin, I'll talk about the Noah story.

God knew that the flood was coming and Noah even warned people for 100 years.

Seems to me that some people failed to heed God's warning (via Noah).

What would be their excuse?

Why should there be only one excuse?

They had no faith? Faith is not just trusting in a God no one can see. Faith is the result of obeying what we do not understand, and when it happens, we have the hindsight of faith.

Or maybe faith is being secure enough in the "knowledge" that the warning corresponds to an impending real event to act on said warning.

The people of Noah's time were said to be corrupt and violent, and not merely having evil imaginings, but were acting out these evil desires. If you buy that description, then they're probably sinners. They may also have been too obsessed with their evil desires to heed the warning of Noah (God).

It's here that I would note that the Biblical account of the Deluge is not the only one.

 

[RobAnybody]

Maybe "rib" and "dust" do not literally mean a rib and dust.

Well, ok, but then maybe "son" does not literally mean son. Maybe "worship" does not literally mean worship. Heck, maybe "God" does not literally mean God. If you go down that path, that we can't take any words in the Bible at their meaning, then every single word is open to ambiguous interpretation.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I mean, what if "God" could possibly, not literally, but possibly, mean "turtle"? And if "Son" could maybe mean "waterfall"? And "life" might maybe mean "tadpoles"? I mean, it's possible, right? All words might have different meanings.

"For Turtle so loved the world that he gave his one and only Waterfall, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal tadpoles."

That works, right? I mean, it's *possible* that's what they really meant. See? That's how silly this whole "well maybe they meant..." argument sounds. If they really meant random words you feel like substituting, then you may as well worship a turtle.

The turtle's name is A'Tuin, by the way. You may bow down to him if you wish. He doesn't care.

Could you elaborate on that?

I hope this helps. If words are allowed to mean anything you want them to mean, well, you wind up worshipping a Turtle.

 

[Kyriakos]

I agree. Only dont forget that what you or I may view as higher ideal will be something barbaric judged by the distant future generations...

I would love to believe this will happen. That future humans will be far more intelligent, kind, creative, evolved than us and the rest of current humanity.
I am not sure it will be so, however. But i do hope it will.

 

[Rashiminos]

then every single word is open to ambiguous interpretation.

Would that be so wrong?

I hope this helps. If words are allowed to mean anything you want them to mean, well, you wind up worshipping a Turtle.

What if I were not caught up in having the words mean what I want them to mean, but perhaps what they might mean in reality? If I don't want to worship a Turtle god, do I have to?

 

[RobAnybody]

If I don't want to worship a Turtle god, do I have to?

No. You do not. Does that help?