liberalism free tech is almost pointless

[ChiefTonfa]

i have been hearing about how people consider winning the lib race to be important to their game strategy. i dont see how it can be that beneficial. i mean u get a free tech but it costs u researching liberalism. u dont really need to unlock liberalism that early, its better to go for education for research, astronomy for research and colonies, and gunpoweder printing press replaceble parts rifling for the major military upgrade. if u use liberalism for one of these technologies it might save u a few turns, but if say astronomy costs 27 turns and liberalism 18, thats only 9 turns saved, not that important. if someone else gets lib first u could just go for astronomy and it would only costs u 9 turns more. im talking like a maraton game too what i play. then u could jsut put off lib until u want it for communism or free religion or something. does anyone else agreee that the free tech lib offers isn't that important to your overall game cause u could just put off liberalism until later. its a free tech but costs u going for a tech u dont need to have that early. ive beaten on emperor a lot and never care about lib much. sure if i see that i can win it i might as well, but only if gets to that point.

 

[r_rolo1]

1-You need Education for liberalism
2-Liberalism unlocks 2 civics that you may want ( Free religion and free speech )
3-You need Lib for communism
4-Liberalism in itself is a good trading chip ( sorry, haven't seen your sig )

That said, you are somewhat right. Indeed people in CFC love Liberalism, and probably love it too much. Sometimes it is simply not worth it, but sometimes it is quite worth the work ( I already took artilery from it once and there are people that took even more pricey techs from it )

 

[Jamuka]

Since you turn off tech trading, then I can see how liberalism doesnt seem that spectacular. W/ tech trading on, however, it's amazing since paper, education and lib all make good bargaining chips. Not to mention printing press.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Strategy! Beat the AI to it, grab a great, expensive tech, then trade Lib to everyone and backfill the cheap ones you bypassed to get the good military techs first. It's amazing what the AI will sometimes give for it.

 

[Jon the Bastard]

I find Liberalism extremely useful especially the free tech. If you are the first to discover Liberalism than you are probably also the first to discover what ever free tech you get - at least that is usually the case in my games. Any time that I can get ahead in techs I am game.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Not going to say anything new here, but:

- Most techs on the way to Lib are very strong by themselves. Civil Service for bureau and chain irrigation, philo for pacifism, education for universities and Oxford. Paper isn't a very strong tech by itself, but it's cheap and pre-req for edu.
- Philo, Paper, Edu and possibly Liberalism itself are GS bulbs. 2-3 GS and you are to Lib in no time.
- Said techs have great trade value. The AIs prioritize different tech paths, so you are effectively doubling your research output with trades.
- You get a free tech, duh.

Still, losing the Lib race isn't the end of the world.

 

[Crusher1]

Liberalism = elite
No Liberalism = sweat shop worker

 

[Iranon]

I find that I can often nab Steel off Liberalism up to Immortal. That's worth more beakers than Liberalism and Philosophy togther (I usually value Code of Laws and Education quite highly in their own right)... this is a case of something for nothing.

When used for economy: It's useful on its own if I have many mature towns already. Using it to slingshot me towards Democracy is useful if I intend to transition from specialists to cottages. If I'm relying on specialists, I will want to use it to snatch something juicy on the way to Biology.

Similarly to the Oracle for Metal Casting, it's a case of getting something for nothing (researching up to priesthood, then building the Oracle to snatch Metal Casting will usually require less citizenturns than researching Metal Casting the normal way so you essentially get a GPP source and the religious line for free).
The only problem, for either: losing the race will mean you spent a lot of resources in a way that doesn't really help your goals.

 

[Ghpstage]

My favourite is the steel slingshot, tech up to chemistry then go liberalism.
Then you say bye bye to the AIs as you roll over them with cannons.

if u use liberalism for one of these technologies it might save u a few turns, but if say astronomy costs 27 turns and liberalism 18, thats only 9 turns saved, not that important. if someone else gets lib first u could just go for astronomy and it would only costs u 9 turns more.

Ah but then you also have liberalism as well as having astro slightly faster.
Free Speech and Free Religion are strong civics in they're own right, and liberalism is a good tech for trading.

One of the main reasons it's considered so highly is that it is close to some very powerful, very expensive techs at that point and by comparison to some of the better ones lib is pretty cheap (steel costs twice as much). It's not too difficult to get steel with this method at around 1000-1200AD.

At which point you suddenly find yourself capable of running over an entire continent at incredible speed, this followed by fast ship building thanks to drydocks and a dom/conquest victory can be seriously sped up by the liberalism free tech.

 

[Razzlesnaff]

I suppose you might be right if Liberalism had no other effect other than you get a free tech. However it's a good trading tech and so are the subsequent techs that lead up to it.

It also gives to really nice Civics to use. I haven't read any of the other posts, but I imagine someone mentioned shooting straight for liberalism after having chemistry and gunpowder and grabbing Steel.

Which if you know how to tech you can get Steel very early. Thus you'll have cannons probably about 200, maybe even 300 years earlier than everyone else.

 

[UWHabs]

18 turns to research Lib+Astro > 27 turns to research Astro.

It is overrated in that it's not usually a game-changer. Ie. if Shaka is pummeling you with units, you're probably better to go feudalism-guilds-Gunpowder then towards Steel than Philosophy-Paper-Education. But especially since education in itself is such a strong tech, and you can get lots of very strong techs from Liberalism (usually either Nationalism for drafting (and maybe Taj-GA for civics switch), PP for commerce, Astro for for going overseas, Steel for Cannons, or even Steam Power for production), it's worth it to shoot for.

I mean, take anything you want to do in that timeframe and it will help you. You can very easily win games without Liberalism (even without ever researching it), but it helps.

 

[Yxklyx]

I love the Steel slingshot! How about going a little further. If you're not intent on war, instead of researching Gunpowder/Chemistry you research Astronomy/Sci Method and then use Liberalism to get Physics (4000 + free Scientist) instead of Steel (2800)?

 

[Crusher1]

Nah! I prefer to bulb Philo, bulb paper, bulb education, 2 bulbs for Chemistry, bulb Liberalism and pick up Steel around 500 AD.

 

[Ghpstage]

Nah! I prefer to bulb Philo, bulb paper, bulb education, 2 bulbs for Chemistry, bulb Liberalism and pick up Steel around 500 AD.

I'm not quite that fast is this on immortal and deity where you can trade for the techs down the engineering line more easily? I never get enough GS to get me through Printing Press, Machinery AND then Chemistry

 

[Crusher1]

Immortal and Deity, yes. Without being PHILO a good GPF in your capital can land you 7 GP early enough to achieve that date. If philo maybe I could get 8 and bulb PP too. Everything else is easily traded for. The AI's tech rate on Emperor is laughably slow making it - well, Good Luck is all I can say.

Of course these games don't happen all the time either =D, maybe 2 out of 10.

 

[Ghpstage]

Immortal and Deity, yes. Without being PHILO a good GPF in your capital can land you 7 GP early enough to achieve that date. If philo maybe I could get 8 and bulb PP too. Everything else is easily traded for. The AI's tech rate on Emperor is laughably slow making it - well, Good Luck is all I can say.

Of course these games don't happen all the time either =D, maybe 2 out of 10.

I'm unsure how many GS I can pull out without PHI though, usually around 7 by 500 AD if I am PHI, might be time for me to try to move up from emperor

 

[CLST]

Since you turn off tech trading, then I can see how liberalism doesnt seem that spectacular. W/ tech trading on, however, it's amazing since paper, education and lib all make good bargaining chips. Not to mention printing press.

Philosophy too.

There are two good reasons to get liberalism.

Early cannons from Steel, and to really close the tech gap (which can be big on harder difficulties.

 

[DMOC]

I'm not quite that fast is this on immortal and deity where you can trade for the techs down the engineering line more easily? I never get enough GS to get me through Printing Press, Machinery AND then Chemistry

Yes, immortal and deity make this ridiculously easy since the AI often has so many techs to trade to you. Now, yes, every now and them you get Alexander on his own island with nothing to trade but let's forget about him. Also, be aware of who has higher WFYABTA limits than others.

Also, make sure you have a GP farm working well before you start the Lib race.

 

[Yxklyx]

Nah! I prefer to bulb Philo, bulb paper, bulb education, 2 bulbs for Chemistry, bulb Liberalism and pick up Steel around 500 AD.

Hiow is this done?

 

[Antilogic]

Let me see...you have 6 bulbs in a relatively short period? Must be running a s$&# load of specialists, scientists I'm guessing.