Libraries

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Let's compare libraries to barracks.

Bot give +2 .
Both reduce unhappiness by 10% (science/crime respectively).
Libraries allow the employment of a scientist, barracks give +15 XP and allow purchase of classic units.
Both are required for the next building in the respective line (university/armory)

So they are very similar to each other. Yet barracks cost significantly less hammes. What gives?
Currently, I find myself building barracks before libraries all the time, even if science accumulation is my main goal (classical scientists are not very hot, I would only run them in extremely food heavy cities).

 

[Enginseer]

Scientist grants +2 Culture and +4 Science and considerably, that's a lot more than what a barrack can do.

 

[CrazyG]

I find scientists to be a pretty good specialist once you have the culture from philosophy. I'm pretty sure its 3 science 2 culture plus those sweet great scientist points. Are barracks too good? Right now it just seems to me that barracks are the 5th essential building that goes in every city (the others being shrine, council, monument and well/waterwheel).

With that said I don't think barracks going to 1 science would be a terrible change.

 

[Starrynite120]

I don't think anything needs to be changed. Barracks are better in the short run, but Libraries are clearly superior in the long run with the specialist. If anything is changed though, no buffs to library. Its already good enough. Reducing 1 science on barracks would be fine, but I think unneeded, and would be a nerf not just to science but to more aggressive playstyles.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Barracks are fine as-is, reducing it's Science would make rushing Libraries too important, it'd further slow down Science which is a bad idea and the balance is fine in it's current state IMHO. That Specialist is pretty important. Also, if it were to be nerfed Science-wise, then warmongering tactics that include delaying Libraries would get severely hurt, becoming unviable, and it's better to have more options as it currently is than just forcing warmongers to go Libraries first if they don't want to fall behind.

I'd rather get a buff to Library like having it cost less Production to compensate for the Council requirement if it's really worse, but IMHO it isn't.

 

[Txurce]

Why do the barracks give any science?

 

[Enginseer]

Why do the barracks give any science?

Balance-wise, being a warmonger means you are going for the lower techs which do not grant you any science buildings like the libraries and universities. So, players who at least manage to hold their defenses off benefit more than the warmongers.

Historically however, wars no matter how bad people say it is has jumpstarted many technologies(European countries begin investing in Flight technology not for "leisure", but rather for military recon and soon later warfare). It's amazing what humans can do at a heightened sense of imminent war. And thus so it has to start the earliest level, the barrack where one man discovers a certain piece of metal can break through his bronze shield.

 

[peterw1987]

No one consider that barracks also give +2production after arena? But i think this is already at the right spot.

I also rush barrack before library.

 

[tu_79]

Der_Zorn_Gottes gives the reason in the OP. If you want science, you don't rush for libraries. Barracks can be researched and built earlier. You need them anyways. The specialist slot is nice, but it takes a while to really get any benefit and it takes a worker and gives some unhappiness (a problem for those expansive civs).
It will be better in the long run, ok, but in the short run you don't need to think what you will build first.
If barracks get only 1 science (or if libraries could be buffed earlier), then libraries will have a (rather small) reason to be built earlier.

It's more or less the same problem with well/watermills.

 

[Stalker0]

Ultimately I don't think this is really an issue. Libraries are still worth their hammers, and there is already plenty of choices early game in building. While you may ultimately build the same buildings the order matters as well as the balance with building units

 

[CrazyG]

If I really want science I would build both

 

[ashendashin]

Remember that the early game isn't so cut and dry. If you have any other source of science, you can afford to go for libraries instead. The paper from Writing is also very useful if you're in a position to use it, so keep in mind that the choice between libraries and barracks is also dependent on what your options are. Lots of food and a good position? Get Writing and you'll have both diplomacy and better science. It's difficult to make friends early on without embassies, so gold is also a factor on Writing if you have the resources to trade. Not only that, but if you have a start where you only need a few spearmen to defend, it would allow an overall more efficient classical war once you get Philosophy which would make up for culture and unhappiness issues. If you rush Military Theory instead, it will likely be a while longer before you get Philosophy.

 

[tu_79]

Remember that the early game isn't so cut and dry. If you have any other source of science, you can afford to go for libraries instead. The paper from Writing is also very useful if you're in a position to use it, so keep in mind that the choice between libraries and barracks is also dependent on what your options are. Lots of food and a good position? Get Writing and you'll have both diplomacy and better science. It's difficult to make friends early on without embassies, so gold is also a factor on Writing if you have the resources to trade. Not only that, but if you have a start where you only need a few spearmen to defend, it would allow an overall more efficient classical war once you get Philosophy which would make up for culture and unhappiness issues. If you rush Military Theory instead, it will likely be a while longer before you get Philosophy.

In all my last games, going for Philosophy was suicidal. There's just so little you can do with spearsman and archers alone.

 

[CrazyG]

You need military theory to unlock Mathematics, which is needed for Philosophy.

 

[Txurce]

I don't think there's much debate about order when it comes to what to build first. Barracks now seem expressly designed to quickly boost the unit supply cap in as painless a way as possible, by contributing an incongruous amount of science, then synergizing with arenas. I would prefer the science in barracks to be reduced, or removed altogether, making the initial science decision tougher.

I realize that, with the present need for fast barracks, the net effect would be to slow research by one previously not immediately necessary tech.

 

[ashendashin]

In all my last games, going for Philosophy was suicidal. There's just so little you can do with spearsman and archers alone.

That's why you have to be in a good position for it. Neither did I say that you should immediately research Philosophy after Writing.

So here's the thing. Military Theory gives the science necessary for war, at the cost of gold and subsequently, culture. Why not just research Trade afterwards and continue towards Writing? That's exactly what you do. At the cost of gold, because you'll end up relying on expensive horsemen. This will also be at the cost of culture, production, and possibly even luxuries, because of how much later the other techs will be.
Again, why not just research those other techs immediately? You can by ignoring Philosophy. This is an especially important choice because you may have been forced to take cities one way or another. Often times I would end up forced to expand my control of a region to survive on higher difficulties. Now, for the question of why there should be such crippling war when I could just puppet everything? Playing with a lot of civs can be debilitating on higher difficulties if you don't control the available land, due to how the AI is so good at rushing weak points. Authority makes many of these problems irrelevant at the cost of a certain amount of freedom on later choices.

With Writing, you can rely on a combination of spearmen and eventually horsemen once the way towards Philosophy is clear. The nice thing about libraries is the extra science will bring this all about at a faster pace, provided that you have a different source of early game science. This will let you go to war without early gold hits if you get some good trade going with other civs. All in all, if you have some form of self reliance and some good choke points where spearmen can hold out, then Writing is an excellent choice, due to the fact that it can support a proper empire without the early gold hit. It is very difficult to do if you don't have the necessary start for it though.

This was really frustrating to go through because I'm trying to defend rushing a tech...Seriously, VP has a bunch of ways to ignore a lot of this crap without getting crippled. I've had plenty of games where I wouldn't bother with either building until barracks suddenly became the only way to field a large military. Feel free to shoot these arguments down because I'm pretty sure the holes are aplenty since the last time I rushed Writing there was just no way for anyone to beat me. I'm pretty sure I had a damn good pantheon at the time too, so now it's probably entirely dependent on what civ you're playing on. This is what I get for playing Germany on Deity so much...I haven't managed to get some early game freedom in so long...

Anyways, I don't see how Barracks need to be nerfed for the sake of ignoring them. My only problem with them is how insanely important they are with the cap system.

 

[Txurce]

Anyways, I don't see how Barracks need to be nerfed for the sale of ignoring them. My only problem with them is how insanely important they are with the cap system.

I don't like the idea of a military building providing so much science, but don't feel strongly about it, per se. I'm also more concerned with how important they are in the cap system. Nerfing them makes them less important, but it doesn't address the underlying issue of why they're so important.

 

[tu_79]

Because Barracks got buffed recently (+5% military cap). We're talking the very early game, where every coin matters, and you need to delay some buildings in favor of more units. Reducing the science it yields to 1 would only be fair, so it can compare in usefulness to other buildings.

 

[ashendashin]

Because Barracks got buffed recently (+5% military cap). We're talking the very early game, where every coin matters, and you need to delay some buildings in favor of more units. Reducing the science it yields to 1 would only be fair, so it can compare in usefulness to other buildings.

Whether or not that's a buff is debatable. It's more of a new concept that ended up making a good building an all important building. Nerfing it is messing with the previous balance of the game in order to support the now nerfed war side of the game.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

You guys are hotheads, it's already hard to get to medieval even by 900th year, the tech/building rate is already slowish unless you play Science-focused civs and you want to remove -2 Science from a building that, yes, is very good and a necessity (as all the ancient era buildings), but doesn't seem overpowered as I nearly always go Water Mill/Monuments/Shrines first anyway? If Science is reduced or removed from Barracks, the warmongerers would also be forced to rush Libraries, delaying the units hidden in the lower part. That'd create homogenity of decisions as everyone, regardless of playstyle, would have to do the same thing because while you COULD go right side first, the result would always be you falling lots of techs behind. Basically same stuff as Civ5 vanilla and so we'd be back to square one - well, unless Forges were moved one tech earlier, got a cost reduction and given +2 or +3 Science, in which case you could complain because Forges would turn into something better than current Barracks as they'd potentially provide production immediately, a GE spot, +2 more prod from Arena and same or superior Science compared to current Barracks. I don't understand the reasoning of nerfing something just because it provides similar benefit in one area as something else - so should Armouries get -Science too, because they're also comparable to Universities, so soon after patches full of warmongerer nerfs? Lots of needless work for Gazebo, though Barracks at -1 Science, Forges cheaper and earlier at +2S instead of +1 could work, but Ottomans Forge could need a nerf or something if that was the case and it'd be yet another warmongering nerf.


Another solution is another building on the right side with +1 Science while also making Forge cheaper, earlier and still with 1S, but no building of this sort exists and it'd slow everything down (unless it provided, like, +1 Prod) and need a picture so even more work.