LizNES5: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying, And Love The Bomb

[Commander Gorma]

Orders in

 

[ZeletDude]

Orders sent!

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Waiting for an answer from TLK before sending

 

[Kozmos]

The idea is a problem for me.

My reason for this view-point is based on my previous experience in both NESes I have played in and moderated. I myself have abused the tech system considerably in some NESes and was able to project myself into a solid lead by spamming PMs to various players and ensuring I was involved in any tech trade. By doing so I was able to achieve a solid lead in two NESes where I otherwise should not have been in a strong position (as the Amurites and as the Babylonians).

In my own experience as a moderator, players become frustrated if their new and shiniest toy is obsolete in 1 or 2 turns. If I get to navy 2, cutting edge for turn 3 let’s say, and develop a new larger aircraft carrier (it could be anything) but next turn by working with a larger group I get navy 4, then I didn’t really get to enjoy my design. Players need to feel that their new designs are not going to be obsolete inside of 2 or 3 turns or they simply won’t invest in UUs.

Thirdly, I feel that by allowing rampant tech trading and technology coalitions, the game will progress much too quickly and between 1960 and 1970 we will see a complete absence of space programs develop into advanced manned bases on the moon, etc.

I would prefer to play in a game where my new navy 2 sub or aircraft carrier has a lifespan of more than one turn. And although some players no doubt want to have tech coalitions so they can race ahead in tech, ultimately I think they would have more fun if each tech level was more meaningful and ultimately enjoy the game more with reduced tech trading.

There is no reason for you toy to be obsolete if you design it well. Even if this is not a realistic NES I see no reason for tech trading to be disabled or hindered in any way. As for progressing too quickly this is not meant to be a realistic NES, I find it too backward to what I'm used to and dont feel like growing through 60s and on tech to get to the really good stuff in the future.

 

[Dreadnought]

I think the problem with tech is not that you can share them; it's the worry that, if you research a new one, your old units or strategies may become obsolete too quickly. And I agree; that is something to be worried about.

 

[Omega124]

Maritime Territorial Waters, March 12, 1960, 14:42

"Hey, Bob, can you hand me a cigar". "Yeah, sure Frank, here ya go". Bob, at the steering wheel of the Emerald Coast, a ship employed in the New England Merchant Marine, tossed a cigar to his friend Frank, who lit it up. "I can't believe they're paying us this much to carry propane to places". Bob responded, "I know, I would had stopped fishing years ago had I known the wages they pai- Wow, look over there"!

Bob pointed out a Maritime Coast Guard ship. Crew members on the ship quickly hoisted up a Lima flag, the sign for the messaged ship to stop. "****it, I'm not stopping for crap", mumbled Bob under his breath, before turning to Frank, "Hey, Frank, hoist November (Negative), then Bravo (I am carrying dangerous materials). Can't they tell we're authorized merchants?". After Frank did so, the Maritime ship hoisted up Uniform, or "You're Running into danger". They then reraised Lima. Bob then said to Frank, "Wave our ensign". Frank rushed to do so, while the small boat continued its path.

---

What happened afterwards remains a mystery. All we know is that the Emerald Coast exploded, killing all the crew. Considering that propane simply does not explode by itself, many New Englanders claimed the Coast Guard fired on the ship, and demanded the government to retaliate on what was known as "The Bloody Emerald". The Maritime Provinces, however, maintains the belief that their was a faulty leak on the propane, and perhaps a semi-lit cigar fell on the leak, causing it to explode. However, this would radically change New England history...

(Part 2 coming out later)

 

[TheLizardKing]

Oh God. I'm away for a day, and come back with 21 PMs.

Well, Internet access is very slow here, so bare with me everyone.

Anyone who claimed a free nation has it, first and foremost. I'm not going to respond to PMs in regards to that.. generally I would, but it took me long enough to get to this page .

Now, in regards to tech sharing, yes their is tech sharing, in reality, yes people can abuse the system, though I find more often then not one may a bit more hesistant about sharing technology. I can provide a better thought out more in depth question in a bit.

Oh, Adrogans, I responded to your one PM question. Please ignore my response, and ask FlyingChicken instead, he is now CAR.

Also, all of you (new) guys, you can still send in orders, but do so ASAP. I'd like to get this released on Saturday.

 

[Adrogans]

I think the problem with tech is not that you can share them; it's the worry that, if you research a new one, your old units or strategies may become obsolete too quickly. And I agree; that is something to be worried about.

This, if tech moves too quickly this will happen and I have seen fast moving tech ruin too many other NESes so I am slightly concerned.

EDIT - xpost.

 

[TheLizardKing]

If anyone has any easy fixes, or suggestions, I'll take them. Though I won't probably make any changes, if any need to be made until after this update.

 

[Adrogans]

It's more that I realized by next turn I could be building a 2 lvl atomic, 3 lvl naval modern destroyer if I directed all my efforts there. Seemed fast to me. (so in two updates I could have a level 1, level 2, and level 3 tech)

 

[TheLizardKing]

Then you hit a slow point when you want level 6, 7, 8 techs, especially if your economy is lagging far behind. Again, suggestions are appreciated. Because I can think of doing is either raising tech prices, or disallowing tech trading, something I don't want to do.

 

[Omega124]

Oh, I just realized that I might not be here for awhile. I'm going to send orders, and then possibly edit this with my second part. If I don't, the important thing is that my President is Nelson Rockerfeller and he did something that was popular in NE but not so much in the international community (TLK will know)

 

[Immaculate]

Honestly do something TLK. I love your moderating style and your updates but i will be the first to say 'I told you so' when things go south if you fail to take adequate action.

Since i hate it when players complain without providing an alternative possible solution, please allow me to introduce a few potential suggestions:

1) Do not allow tech coalitions and if someone wants to teach someone their technology they get a number of free EP in that technology equal to the rank the teacher has. So if i have rank 6 navy and want to teach someone navy, they don't suddenly learn from rank zero to rank six in one turn, they simply get a free 6EP spent on improving that technology. You can only learn, in any single field, from one nation.

Pros: Simple and easy to moderate.
Cons: Perhaps still not strong enough a 'nerf' to tech trading.

2) Disallow tech coalitions. Only allow a nation to learn up to half the value of any tech from another nation. So if one nation has rank 6 in navy and wants to teach me, it would still cost me 1EP for rank 1, 2 EP for rank 2, 4 EP for rank 3, 8 EP for rank 4, etc.

Pros: Relatively simple to implement.
Cons: Still way too fast to tech quickly. Half off is still way too fast.

3) Disallow all tech trading and tech coalitions

Pros: best solution
Cons: Moderator doesn't like it.

Whatever you do, even if you don't change tech trading, you MUST disallow tech coalitions. Its just too open to abuse.

Please accept these suggestions and criticisms in the spirit they are given TLK, namely that i love your games, that i see a potential huge problem, and that i want to help you fix it so the game is more enjoyable for everyone. Please understand that you are one of my 3 favorite moderators (not including myself then you'd be in the top four- just jokes- ) and i don't want to be mean or ugly- just helpful.

If anyone has any easy fixes, or suggestions, I'll take them. Though I won't probably make any changes, if any need to be made until after this update.

Thats fine- do it after the update so you don't penalize anyone... but make sure long term this problem doesn't continue. I've seen it spiral out of control more times than i like and it can really ruin an otherwise fine game.

 

[arya126]

The USMA is dismayed by this unstability on its northern Border. Is there any way it can help to ease the political turmoil/international future strife?

EDIT: How about this? Tech coalitions go out the window, and tech trading is limited to two tech trades per nation per turn, and can only happen in these scenarios:

1. The trade is 1:1, or in other words, one technology is being traded for a single other technology.

2. If a 'gift' tech trade, a nation can only teach another nation up to half the technology. The second nation still has to research the rest. This is Roleplayed by a nation giving the other some knowledge, but the second nation still designs its own model or whatever.

3. A set amount of IP based on the level of the tech is given to the donating nation, in return for the tech. The donating nation is then free to spend that IP if it has the EP in order to do so.

Would this at all be possible? If not, i hope I have at least inspired another idea that will be suitable.

 

[TheLizardKing]

@Immac

I appreciate the suggestions, let me mill over them for a few days.. there is a lot of rapid pace stuff going on right now, so I need some time to adequatley catch up.

If anyone else has any other ideas, please throw them in.

Now, here is a list of orders I have. If your nation is not included in this, either point it out to me, or preferably, rescend them.

Alaska
Britain (revised once)
Californian
Dutch
Ecuadorian
German
Gran Colombian
Iberian
Indian
Indochinese (revised.. uhh.. four times I think ? It's okay mate. It happens )
Japanese
Middle-Atlantic
Russian
Texan
Ukrainian

Which, if I am currect, means I'm still missing orders from the

The Central Asian Republic
Egypt
New English
Turkish
Brazil
Far Eastern Republic
French

And that's off the top of my head. So if you see your nations name missing from the top list, and it's because you didn't send orders, get them in. I'm in all honesty fairly busy, though aspects of the update have already been started.

If you did send orders, and don't see your name on this list, please resend them, or notify me.

Also, please refrain from sending revised orders past this point, if you already have orders in.

 

[Omega124]

Orders just sent, just as I'm about to leave right now.

 

[TheLizardKing]

I just edited the front page with the new players, and the new free nations. Please check to make sure your name is up there. All alliances and the like will be added post-update.

I have orders from

Alaska
Britain (revised once)
California
Dutch
Ecuador
Germany
Gran Colombia
Iberia
India
Indochina (revised.. uhh.. four times I think ? It's okay mate. It happens )
Japan
New England
USMA
Russia
Texas
Ukraine

And I'm missing orders from the

The Central Asian Republic
Egyptians
Arabians
Turkish
Brazillians
Far Easterners
French

 

[Adrogans]

I suppose another way to limit growth would be to say you can only get 2 levels of tech a turn. And of course removing tech trading or putting some kind of cap like you can only get 1 level of tech a turn gifted and country a cannot give country b more than halfway up to their level (i.e. A has 6 levels of Atomics B has none so over three turns A could get B up to Level 3).

 

[badunoff]

orders sent

 

[Eltain]

Orders also sent, figured I might'swell post.