LK158, CCM2, Canada

The issue I have is that playing deity seems no challenge at all here.


Yes, and CCM on Sid is not much different either, since the AI cannot spam cities like in the original game.

In my opinion, CCM plays 1-2 levels of difficulty lower than the original game. Auto-produced settlers, no alliances, increased production and less corruption (all advantages for the human player), but most importantly, no way for the AI to win, makes the game on CCM much easier than the original.

In AW the lack of armies/artillery increase a bit the difficulty, but still the other advantages for the human player + no contacts trading make it easier overall.


Challenging games that I played on CCM:

- Sid + OBC: great variant, seems too difficult, but if you are patient (= short wars for cities) eventually becomes easier. 50 turns research (N. Warfare resulted always in a monopoly for me) + many contacts will help to catch up in techs. Coastal Capital is a must, and the Seafaring trait helps a lot.
- Sid + Defiant: easier than it seems, since no alliances in CCM + the AI demands generally much less compared to the original game.
- Sid + OBC + Defiant: this one is extremely challenging, but still doable (the map plays an important role in the most difficult games). This variant is very challenging even on Deity.

- AW: Demigod is doable, but with many early contacts even Emperor can be a challenge. CCM2 has increased unit costs, making it harder to research, but if you keep expanding you are going to catch-up even without the GL. After you reach Rails the game is over for the AI (+ in Communism/Fascism I had no unit costs at all).

- Currently I am playing AW + OBC on Emperor. After a couple of losses, this is going well, but conquest is not certain (I will have less than 100 turns to clear the 2nd continent).

--> Rushing Granaries/Hospitals is extremely important for any high difficulty game on CCM (= like settling new cities).
 
OBC?
 
Yes, and CCM on Sid is not much different either, since the AI cannot spam cities like in the original game.

a) Ray2, are you playing the public download version, where GWs are producing additional settlers?
b) As in normal Civ 3, on Sid Level in CCM, the additional starting settlers and workers are doubled compared to difficulty level deity.

In my opinion, CCM plays 1-2 levels of difficulty lower than the original game. Auto-produced settlers, no alliances, increased production and less corruption (all advantages for the human player)

These are all features, that have no additional negative influence on the AI compared to normal Civ 3 as there is no wrong programming routine in these features (as it is with the spoiled Civ 3 landartillery routine). That HI generally handles gameplay better than the current AI is no special problem of CCM.

In AW the lack of armies/artillery increase a bit the difficulty, but still the other advantages for the human player + no contacts trading make it easier overall.

The lack of armies and artillery are not only features that have to be taken into account in 'AW-games". They are important in all games as they substitute or eliminate wrong programming routines in Civ 3 by routines that are handled better by the AI. In the next update of CCM2 the defense value for bombards and cannons will be set to a higher level to give even allone marching CCM landartillery a better protection - but even in the current CCM2, landartillery is 'on the map' - other than in standard Civ 3, where the offenive use of landartillery (especially combined with railroads) is a huge advantage for the human player based on a wrong artificial routine of these units. The same is true for armies.

May be contact trading can be a help for the AI, but it was taken out in CCM, as it is really no fun in game (at least not for me). I like to explore the world with ships and not to build one (or two) ships and receive nearly the whole world as a present when they meet a civ on another continent. The part of actively discovering the world -instead of passively receiving the world by information trading without ever beeing there- in my eyes is one of the parts in CCM that I like the best. If you want that contact trading you can simply activate it by a click in the editor.

.. but most importantly, no way for the AI to win

Ray2, have you seen, that the last LK sucession game was lost?

...makes the game on CCM much easier than the original.

Additionally to the facts discussed above (landartillery, armies) you have forgotten to list, that the HI favouring (and boring) ICS tactics in CCM isn´t possible and that CCM contains HN landunits that allow AI civs to capture cities of other civs without declaring war, what is not possible for HI civs. So, even when taking into account, that the HI handles supplyshipments better than the AI, I don´t agree to your statement, that CCM is much easier than the original Civ 3.
 
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Hi Civinator.

Before I forget, my game this time runs without issues at all (I had that bug with my game freezing if you remember). Currently I am approaching turn 400, and everything seems to be working fine :goodjob:

2 minor things that I have noticed:

a) Strangely, the AI ignores Arm's Race. They will build the X-Ray wonder, but not Arm's Race.
b) The AI seems to overemphasise planting forests. I have seen capitals stuck at size 14-15 because they had planted way too many forests.



a) Ray2, are you playing the public download version, where GWs are producing additional settlers?
b) As in normal Civ 3, on Sid Level in CCM, the additional starting settlers and workers are doubled compared to difficulty level deity.

I am playing the public download version.

In CCM the AI on Sid starts with 4 settlers, compared to the two for the human player, which is similar to the original game. However, in CCM, after 30 turns the human player will still have 2 cities less than the AI. In the original game he will have 1/4 of their cities, or even less. After 60 turns he will not have any land to settle because the AI will have filled everything.

And those SID-production additional cities for the AI, make a huge difference to the difficulty of the game.



These are all features, that have no additional negative influence on the AI compared to normal Civ 3 as there is no wrong programming routine in these features (as it is with the spoiled Civ 3 landartillery routine). That HI generally handles gameplay better than the current AI is no special problem of CCM.

By AI I refer only to the computer-controlled civs. I am not talking about tactical/strategic behaviour.

CCM did not make the AI worse obviously. The new added features however (most of which I like), have made the game easier, in my opinion.



May be contact trading can be a help for the AI, but it was taken out in CCM, as it is really no fun in game (at least not for me). I like to explore the world with ships and not to build one (or two) ships and receive nearly the whole world as a present when they meet a civ on another continent. The part of actively discovering the world -instead of passively receiving the world by information trading without ever beeing there- in my eyes is one of the parts in CCM that I like the best. If you want that contact trading you can simply activate it by a click in the editor.

I understand your reasoning for the decision to take out contacts trading. But this is another change that made the game easier.

For example, no contacts trading means that civs in huge maps will never get to know each other and trade. Most of the times I catch-up in techs is after contacting first the other continent (the AI will not bother) and trading with the richest civs there. In the original game you would have one super rich civ (the tech leader) and no possibility to take advantage of the situation I described.

In AW, contacts trading can cost the game for the human player (imagine 10 new contacts, in your continent, sending their initial stacks to you at the same time ;)).


Ray2, have you seen, that the last LK sucession game was lost?

I have seen that. They decided to restart because they had lost one (?) city to enslavers, which is very frustrating. I am convinced that if they decide to continue that game they can win it eventually.

Obviously the AI can still win if you play an extreme variant, but that was not my point.

My point was that in the original game you can lose by culture, diplomacy, and spaceship, or even domination. In CCM obviously culture and diplomacy are out, a spaceship victory is impossible for the AI (even on Sid), and their only option is to 'win' is by victory points (?) or if the human player decides to abandon the game.

In CCM you will never see a power-house civ like the ones you can see in the original game. Auto-produced settlers and the lack of alliances keep all the civs balanced throughout the game. In the original, I have seen civs getting close to the Domination limit, something that can never happen in CCM.



Additionally to the facts discussed above (landartillery, armies) you have forgotten to list, that the HI favouring (and boring) ICS tactics in CCM isn´t possible and that CCM contains HN landunits that allow AI civs to capture cities of other civs without declaring war, what is not possible for HI civs. So, even when taking into account, that the HI handles supplyshipments better than the AI, I don´t agree to your statement, that CCM is much easier than the original Civ 3.

I agree. Those are features that can add to the difficulty, but overall, in my opinion CCM is much easier compared to the original game. I am not complaining though. There are always ways to make the game more difficult (e.g. playing variants). CCM is a great mod, and I am playing it because I like it.
 
Civinator and Ray2, interesting discussion! IMO you both raised some great points.

For my part, I generally agree with Ray that CCM plays a bit easier than vanilla C3C. I also agree that CCM is great fun, and I'm excited to play more of it :D
 
I also agree that CCM is great fun, and I'm excited to play more of it :D
Hopefully we can figure out what to play before the new version arrives.

I'm fine with base game, but I know others are not. Trying to figure out what variant to do to up the difficulty.
 
Hey, I'll play the base game, variant rules, CCM, AoI, or pretty much any mod anyone cares to suggest as long as we have a team interested in playing :D
 
Lurker:
"In AW, contacts trading can cost the game for the human player (imagine 10 new contacts, in your continent, sending their initial stacks to you at the same time ;))."

This is the fact. Even with a great start and a very good early UU, you can flat lose on AWDG on a massive 31 civ map. You do no even need 10 civs, I think we had 7 come at us and though the play was correct, we still got over run. I have only played a handful of the top mods, but for me only CCM can be played again and again.
 
Hopefully we can figure out what to play before the new version arrives.

I'm fine with base game, but I know others are not. Trying to figure out what variant to do to up the difficulty.
Hey, I'll play the base game, variant rules, CCM, AoI, or pretty much any mod anyone cares to suggest as long as we have a team interested in playing :D
:thumbsup:
I feel the same way.
The biggest appeal of an AW game for me was that I had not played one since LK22. :old:
 
FYI, I am ok with a base game as well which is why I suggested a poorer start.

I don't think OBC matches the style we like to play. Have played it in the past (even AW OBC) but its not my favorite. Though the limited cities for the AI would make conquest easier for the game until settlers - no refilling land faster than it can be cleared)
 
I sit on the sidewalk and empty my last bottle of ale, and throw it in the street. Here comes a man of great posture and almost trips on the bottle: 'What are you doing. you lunatic?

I look up and see a familiar face, it's LKendter, the great general. I immediately apologized, but he just huffed and walked on. I thought he would remember me, but apparently not. Oh well, times comes and goes, he must be in better battles now.

I am very drunk and I search my pockets, I have enough coins for one more ale. I get it and drink it while I walk to my tent outside of town. In an alley I stumble into a huge figure, the streetlights gave me enough light to see his face. : Well my, it is good to see you again Sir Greebley?..but the man just brushed me aside and walked down to the square.

I found my tent and laid down, thinking of old friends and old battles, battles fades and so does memories.

"zzzzzz"
 
Well met Greebley, time goes by and you guys are still doing civ3. Just amazing! I played with Sir Bugsy ALOT and a few games with barbslinger.

Back then teams was almost decided after a game was finished, so I never got a chance to play with those other great players. But I think I played a couple of LK games with you and for some reason LK games was seriously fun, especially when he got pissed off when someone did a stupid move or forgot something, lol.

My own games were more casual and Rat joined us in Silence is golden, and furthered that game by trying more Silence games. Now you guys are above SID and I'm back to Settler haha. Good times. I did buy civ3 for 5 bucks yesterday, haven't tried it yet, you might see me coming around. :)
 
The update is still in work. You can have a closer look in the CCM2 forum at CFC and the betatester forum at civforum.de. The civilopedia entries are time-consuming. Today I made most of the entries for the new units line of protected cruisers. The new desert units must still be added and the civilopedia entries for some new buildings must be written and the entries for the techs must be checked. I hope at Monday night I can say more.
 
Btw, I will be going back to Europe for holidays from 8-23 June. Maybe I can be put last in the roster
 
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