LK28 - Regent training.

[LKendter]

NEW PLAYER NEEDED
3 players is just to light to keep this game going



hotrod0823 - on deck
Juliennew -
rctmasta - Playing <<<
OPEN SLOT

 

[LKendter]

rctmasta OVERDUE

Still looking for another rookie

 

[Tiamat]

As I have just recently moved up to Regent level I'll join up.

 

[Juliennew]

I think you can take the game, Tiamat. Go on.

 

[LKendter]

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - on deck
rctmasta - (heading toward dropped)
Tiamat - Playing
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed

 

[Tiamat]

Got the game. Will play some tonight and the rest tomorrow. Will post when I have completed.

 

[Tiamat]

LK 28

Turn 0 (550 AD)
- MM Athens 2 workers move from forest to irrigated grasslands as suggested.
- Switched Argos from Library to Marketplace.
- Egypt will not trade Theology. Will only give WM + 20G for Incense, not enough.
- Zulu has no tech/lux./res. to trade

Turn 1 (560 AD)
- Move galley into Rhodes for healing.
- Move workers

Turn 2 (570 AD)
- Workers working. Galley healing.

Turn 3 (580 AD)
- Corinth produces Granary, ordered to build Harbor.
- Pharsalos produces Aqueduct, ordered to build Marketplace.
- Knossos expanded.
- Athens grows, MM worker to soon to be irrigated tile from forest.
- Sparta & Thessalonica grow.
- Egypt still won't trade Theology. Trade TM for TM.
- Zulu still has nothing to trade.

I - Zulu offers TM for TM, accept.

Turn 4 (590 AD)
- Mycenae grows, switched from Library to Marketplace.
- Workers working.
- Move galley towards eastern end of Egypt for exploration.

Turn 5 (600 AD)
- Thermopylae produces Marketplace, ordered to build Horseman.
- Workers working.

Turn 6 (610 AD)
- WLTKD in Thermopylae.
- Pharsalos grows.
- Egypt & Zulu both now have Engineering & Theology. Neither will trade Engineering,
both want all our gold, & 6 gpt (Zulu also wants WM) for Theology. Too expensive.

Turn 7 (620 AD)
- Delphi expands.
- Troy grows.
- Workers working.

Turn 8 (630 AD)
- Sparta grows, produces Cathedral, ordered to produce Harbor.
- Thermopylae produces Harseman, ordered to build Granary. MM worker to irrigated square
for growth. Send Horseman to Thessalonica.
- Delphi produces Aqueduct, ordered to build Marketplace.
- Eretria produces Aqueduct, ordered to build Marketplace.
- Troy produces Barracks, ordered to build Aqueduct.
- Corinth grows, MM worker to irrigated grassland.
- Athens grows, MM worker from forest to mined grassland.
- MM worker in Herakleia to prevent loss of 1 pop. FP goes from 18 to 21 turns.
- Thessalonica grew. MM worker from Mountain to soon to be mined hill.
- Trade WM + 3G to Eqypt for WM.
- Engineering still unavailable from either Eqypt of Zulu.
- Theology costs are all our gold. Not worth it as we get it in 4 turns.

I - Egypt asks us to move our galley, won't agree to a right of passage, tell her
I will move it.

Turn 9 (640 AD)
- Ephesus produces Harbor, ordered to build Marketplace.
- Delphi grows, MM worker from undeveloped grassland to soon to be mined hill.
- Eretria grows, MM from forest to irrigated grassland.
- Set worker near Thessalonica/Herakleia to connect Iron.
- MM Thermopylae from forest to irrigate grassland. Lose 2 shields/turn but
gain 2 food & 2 commerce/turn.

I - Zulu are building Sistine Chapel.

Turn 10 (650 AD)
- MM Athens from irrigated grassland to mined hill, growth slows from 2 to 4 turns,
but changes SZ from 31 to 25 turns.
- Argos grwos.
- MM Thermopylae fromt forest to irrgated grassland (formerly used by Athens). Speeds
up growth, doesn't slow down production.
- Thessalonica mine complete, switch from Library to Marketplace.
- Increased Science to 50%, Theo in 1 turn and +2G.

Summary:

- There are 3 workers on the mountain near Athens to begin mining/roading it.
- Neither Egypt or Zulu are willing to trade Engineering.
- Egypt's army is bigger than ours, Zulu's is about the same size.
- The galley is useless for further exploring right now, maybe we should use
it to start moving troops in preparation for war.

 

[Tiamat]

Here is the game:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-650AD.zip

 

[LKendter]

City MM - Delphi is being starved - No city should be allow a growth factor of 1 food - especially one lacking a granary.
Move from hill to grassland. After hill is mined, switch from forest to hill.

Ephesus is at ZERO growth - it has a harbor! Move one, if not both workers to the ocean.
If you want to move 1 to get some shields, then switch to granary to offset the slow growth.
NEVER stunt city growth except 1/1 cities.

Knossos - again growth is king. Switch from dye forest to irragated plains.
===========================
City Production - Therm building granary After size 6, these are really important to hit size 12 quickly.
===========================
Forbidden palace - 19 turns is the best we can do without adding another worker to the city.
===========================
Military - War is almost guarenteed soon. Both AI civs are out of growth room. What does this mean?
1 - Find at least one city to build military.
2 - Move the troops (at least horseman) toward front line cities with barracks -
This basically means Troy.
===========================
Settlers - With war probably happening soon, we should have a spare settler in Troy to fill in a gap.
===========================
Workers - Based on my Delphi mm comments - the hill could have waited.
Since it will take 4 turns - complete the mine / road, then work on the grasslands.

The 2 workers irragating s, se of Athens will gain nothing until > size 12.
The city is size 10, +3 food. Add the hill, size 11, +2 food. Add the mountain, size 12, +0 food.
This is perfect until hospitals.

The spare iron by Herakleia is being connected.
I've seen it argued both ways with resource depletion.
My preference it to connect an extra so a key resource doesn't disappear at a critical time.

Troy - a subtle worker issue - we should improve tiles that are not danger of becomeing Zulu first.
It the border for Zulu move in there favor, we will have improved tiles for them!
Probably won't happen with the Zulu, but if this were a good culture civ...

What I like in the report - you were thinking about city mm in detail.
===========================
Overall - We really need that fp on-line. +2 gold with 50% science is pretty weak.
The marketplaces will help.
===========================
Turn Overall - No major errors.
===========================

hotrod0823 - Playing
Juliennew - on deck
rctmasta - (heading toward dropped)
Tiamat -
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

 

[hotrod0823]

I have it and will try to play and post later tonight.

Hotrod

 

[Higher Game]

I've been watching this game, and it seems that you give some good advice, Lee. But you need more city overlap and closer placement, as you can't use all of the tiles around a city until much, much later. Your playing style might be right for size 20 super cities, but other people do just as well with a group of size 12 or even size 10 cities. It isn't incorrect to have a lot of overlap. Otherwise, you give some good advice for new players, and it is a shame that more people don't help them out as much as you are. Good job!

Vel did a thread about city placement at Apolyton, and it is very good. Check it out, both styles of placement are viable and they have both advantages and disadvantages.

 

[LKendter]

The city placement in this game has been one of the biggest problems. I wanted several of the cities in different locations. On the overlap issue - don't forget another item: OCN. If you add a bunch more cities, crossing that magical number - it will be much harder to get good production from them.

As for the Vel city placement thread - how about a link? Nobody is going to want to hunt blindly for this thread.


The 2 big issues this game have been:
Weak worker actions
Poor city placement.

 

[Higher Game]

Greece is commercial man! OCN isn't going to hurt you, take advantage of your traits!

I will hunt down the thread and give it a bump as I don't know how to post links. Sorry. It's a good read, and I did one myself as my King of Wrestling name at Apolyton. It's discussed a lot now because corruption is more crippling than in Civ 2.

 

[LKendter]

Commercial ups the number of cities for OCN, not eliminate it.

 

[Higher Game]

I know, but it is still an excellent trait that you should take more advantage of. The Vel thread (and my own) are both at the Apolyton Tips and Strategy section, not the general forum. He encourages you to try different city placement styles, and that they are just about =, so you shouldn't discourage people from trying new styles. I am just saying that it is ok to suggest a city site based on resources or a river, but you cannot tell a person if it is better to place cities the way you place them, as there are good and bad parts about city placement. Still, your advice is usually on target.

 

[LKendter]

Well as an example in this game:
A city was place gaining ZERO new tiles.
The southern city by the dye forest went to far south - cutting our any grasslands.

 

[Higher Game]

Hmm. I see what you mean. There is nothing wrong with the placement, as many unused tiles could be used by the new city. However, it wasn't very smart doing that because there is a lot of northern territory that will be taken if you do not get it soon. The city wasn't needed there, so you were correct in this example.

However, all of the cities surronding the capitol are size 6 in one of the screens, with a lot of unused land in between. Your core cities should be closer, but you are correct in having the far away cities take in as much as possible. The main benefit of having a lot of small cities is less need for luxuries and better culture, and the ability to have workers join cities means you can abandom them later if needed.

The fact is, you aren't using enough land near the capitol. Even after aquaducts, you will not reach the max potential. The game will have already been decided by the time hospitals come, so you should place cities closer and expect a lot of overlap. It really isn't so bad. A city is useful in the modern era even with just 10 tiles, so don't stress perfect placement so much. That is only really important to the far off cities with the only purpose of taking territory and resources.

 

[hotrod0823]

LK 28 From 650 AD

650 AD (0): Change Argos to granary (4): city is at 4 now with granary will grow quicker, markets can wait until granary and eventually the aqueduct are completed. Same goes for Mycenae with only 3 lux, markets don't give a huge happiness bonus and city is only a size 4, granary will help city grow faster. MM as suggested at Ephesus, grow in 20 turns, veto Market to granary.
Zulus and Egypt both have Engineering and refuse to trade.

660 AD (1): Learn Theology, start Engineering in 11 turns. Corinth finishes Harbor starts Horseman. 3 workers in MTs near Athens move to grasslands

670 AD (2): Mines at Athens, Roads in the hills completed move to undeveloped grass to the SW. MM Athens to newly mined hill SZAW in 22, growth to 11 in 2 turns.

680 AD (3): Knossos builds aqueduct and starts granary.Workers actions virtually complete at Athens moving to develop Corinth and Sparta.

690 AD (4): Thermopylae builds Granary starts Horseman. Corinth builds horse starts Catapult. Argos builds Granary starts aqueduct. With new units and buildings now running -2 gold but 2 new markets will be on in less than 5 turns. Athens grow to 12 in 10, SZ completes in 18. Sparta complets harbor starts Catapult. Change Corinth to Horseman, they will be vets at sparta catapult doesn't need vet status.

700 AD (5): at 50% running +2 gold, Eng. in 7 turns. Cleo has Education and Engineering. @ Lee at what point do you stop researching and begin buying tech?

710 aD (6): Market completes at Pharsalos, start Granary.

720 AD (7): Sparta completes Catapult and start as settler, ready in 3 sparta grows to 11 in 1. Thermo, builds horseman starts archer ready in 2 turns. Corinth builds horseman and start another. Egyptians are building Copernicus's Observatory. Cows at Sparta get water .

730 AD (8): Keep moving troups to Troy.Various worker movements to get water to Delphi.

740 AD (9): Change Thermo to Hopilite so we can move out some fortified horseman from Delphi and Thermo. Delphi starts Granary.

750 AD (10): Sparta finishes settler, switch to Catapult. MM to Grow back to 10 in 2, catapult ready in 2. Eretria finishes market start granary. Athens MM to grow in 3 complete Sun in 12.

Sent a few horseys to Troy, settler on the way, 1 catapult and another is being built. Finished some Granaries and marketplaces. We are behind in Tech but chose to avoid the library and focus on the growth, ie all the granaries. They are slow to build but after the FP is finished in 9 turns, aqueducts should ge quick to build. Too many maybe but I don't see the benifit of a market in a city that is less than size 6 and growing slowly.

As far as diplomatic issues, Egypt and Zulus both have Engineering, and Egypt has Education. Our trade of dyes for ivory has run out, try to renegociate but she won't trade 1 for 1, we pay an additional 9 gold but get 20 more turns of ivory .
Zulus will trade Engineering but we are only 2 turns from it now.

The bank has 146 gold, +18 gpt, at 40% research and engineering in 2 turns.

Hotrod

Here is the save:




LK 28 - 750AD

 

[Sullla]

Popping into the thread here... In terms of pure efficiency, it is better and more effective to go and plant all cities very close together in ICS style just as Higher Games has been mentioning. But I take pains to avoid doing this, because it is both unbalancingly powerful and painfully tiresome to manage so many cities. IMO Civ3 is considerably more fun when you treat the cities as, well, cities and not as numbers in a complex equasion to win the game the fastest. Unless there is a strong reason arguing against it, I try to keep overlap between cities to a minimum. Sure, I know that the game is almost always decided before hospitals arrive, but the thought of deliberately setting up my cities so that NONE of them will ever exceed size 12 strikes me as more of a pain than anything else. I also think that it's far better for newcomers to learn proper placement of cities with the understanding of each one having 21 tiles (or close to it) than to teach them to cram their cities together willy-nilly in a game of ICS gone crazy.

Kind of a silly issue I guess, but I find the game relatively easy to win even if I am "wasting" tiles by placing cities with minimum overlap. And I do think that in a training game, LKendter is doing the right thing to focus on game fundamentals rather than advanced stuff like ICS madness.

 

[LKendter]

City MM - A very important MM was missed. To MM correctly you should check each city after improving terrain.
Moving from forest to hill saves a turn on fp - 2 might have been saved if done during hotrod0823 turn.

===========================
City Placement - Although me and Higher Game don't totally agree - I took a hard look at our land.
We did miss one good city spot. A city at the black X will claim the 4 ununsed yellow x squares.
This city will bring in a lot of revenue when we start using the ocean squares.
We are hurting for cashflow - this city would help a lot.

===========================
City Production - No arguements.
===========================
Forbidden palace - 19 turns is the best we can do without adding another worker to the city.
===========================
Military - War is almost guarenteed soon. Both AI civs are out of growth room. What does this mean?
1 - Find at least one city to build military.
2 - Move the troops (at least horseman) toward front line cities with barracks -
This basically means Troy.
===========================
Settlers - With war probably happening soon, we should have a spare settler in Troy to fill in a gap.
===========================
Workers - We need to achieve balance! We can't go pure irragation or pure mines
Each city should be looked at on a individual basis for what they need.
My irragation comments early were because of ZERO irragation - but we are know at almost 100% irragation.
Balance is the key.

Sparta AND Eretria has +6 food, but we are irragating? - Plus 6 is PLENTY of food. Sparta only needs MINES in the current square.
We should LEAVE the forest there to get some 2 shield squares.

Therm is +4 food with an irragated square to follow, so +5 food. CANCEL forest clearing, the city will be hurting for shields.
If this was to get water to Delphi (which needs it at +1 food) - you should simply bring water 1 square south (left of forest).

Knossos is stunted at +1 food - this is the town that needs to clear forest / add irragation.

We could still use some more workers - a lot of cities are using unimproved tiles - skim a couple from the +6 food cities.


This is an example of a good size 12 city taking advantage of terrain.
First thing I did was move workers from forest to grassland, and hills to grassland.
Multiple mm during the growth period including temporary growth delay to finish granary before growth.
This allowed the city to have the granary used optimally.
This city is around a lot of tundra / hills.
However, by irragating a lot of grassland hit size 12 with 22 shields before corruption.
I give the city what it needed - water.

I ran the same excerise at Eretia. I add NO new irragation as I can get +7 food with mm.
I cancelled granary for cathedral - happiness will be an here, not growth - due in 20 turns.
I give the city what is needed - shields.

The point to the excercise - each city must be looked at to see what will benifit THAT city.

===========================
Turn Overall - No major errors.
===========================

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - Playing
rctmasta - (heading toward dropped)
Tiamat - on deck
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.