LK74 - Sid, Civ = TDB

[akots]

OK, here is dot map. IMO, 1, or 1a, or 1b is a must to build. 2 is great location as well. About 3 or 3a don't really know, it is not that excellent. Also, I've noticed that Lahore is somewhat a little bit too far away for if it were one tile closer to Dehli at distance 4, we would have considerably lower corruption there and in subsequent cities to the south. Keep in mind, that commerical trait mostly affects OCN and rank corruption is considerably lower in our case than distance component especially in Despotims because of rounding on Sid/Small map but I have to check to make sure. Also, we have FP which somewhat eases the pain though not much. Overall, we can cope without 2 and 3 except that site 1 is just too good to miss.

 

[Yom]

lurker's comment:
1 is by far the best of the 1's. It redeems 7 water tiles, compared to 5 and 6 for 1a and 1b, respectively.

 

[LKendter]

I marginally agree on 1. I hate to have our #1 city in rank be a primary fishing village. My main reason to agree is to take advantage of the fish tile.

2 and 3a are OK fishing villages. Neither is a great city site.
3A is out. It claims to very new unique tiles.

These 3 are it except for new cities from razing and replacing AI cities. We do want settlers on standby to replace any razed city provided we gain a city with ZERO culture overlap.

 

[akots]

I marginally agree on 1. I hate to have our #1 city in rank be a primary fishing village. My main reason to agree is to take advantage of the fish tile. ...

The city will make lots of cash in the middle of the game if we survive to it.

Then I proceed with settling 1 and probably 2 and will think again about 3 but 3 I don't like myself very much. I guess main task will be to prepare for war. Do we plan the assault against southern Hittite city? We have only a single sword around it. Need at least 2-3 more. I'd also like to have math and at least start on cats before war. And I'm thinking about 20 swords at the choke for the start. If we don't have enough units, it would be tricky to survive.

Cannot play today, will play certainly tomorrow.

 

[LKendter]

The city will make lots of cash in the middle of the game if we survive to it.

I agree it will make a lot of cash. I am worried how many badly needed shields will be lost due to rank corruption.

===============

Cannot play today, will play certainly tomorrow.

I look forward to the turn. This game has been waiting long enough for turn discussion.

 

[akots]

I agree it will make a lot of cash. I am worried how many badly needed shields will be lost due to rank corruption.

Believe me or not, almost none.
You can try to put some variables over the corruption formula and see for yourself. The trick is that rounding. It would be probably noticeable only starting from 15-20 spt per city which is rather far away.

I look forward to the turn. This game has been waiting long enough for turn discussion.

If not for your dotmap request and waiting for the reply, I could have played on Tuesday.

Anyhow, back to turnlog.

Preturn check. Bombay is basically wasting the game and its granary by not growing, switched to settler, ready in 4 turns. Bangalore switched from spear to sword. Kolhapur has too many tiles improved, is building granary and not working irrigated wheat. Left like it was, do not know what is right atm. The city does not benefit from luxury rate and it might not grow very well. However, potentially it could have been used as a 5-turn worker factory. Jaipur was working fish, switched to mined grassland for an extra shield, rax were in 11, now in 8, no change in commerce. Swapped tiles between Kolhapur and Hyder for extra growth. Persia has over 2K gold in their pockets. Hittites are apparently losing cities and really badly.

Hit Enter. Mursilis asks us out, we withdraw. Calcutta settler->rax.

[1] 130BC. Settler goes to site 2. IBT. Mayan instigator comes and takes our last 7g. Byzantines start of Shakespeare, Persia completes Magellans.

[2] 110BC. Bengal founded, buidling temple. IBT. Persia declared to Maya. Dehli sword-sword, Lahore settler – sword (regular), the city does not have rax, there is no time for them IMO.

[3] 90BC. Settler moving east. IBT. Inca and Persia allied against Maya. Bombay settler->sword (regular as well). Madras sword->sword, Bangalore sword -> sword, Hyder worker->sword (regular this one also).

[4] 70BC. Moving units to front, time to strike might be soon, Hittites are dying.

[5] 50BC. Rather frustrating set of turn. But we just have to dig out or the tech hole somehow. Maya is in Democracy, Persia and Hittites in Monarchy and others in Republic. IBT. Redlined byzantine knight storms a Hittite city. Dehli sword->spear.

[6] 30BC. I give up and hire 2 scientists in corrupt cities so that we can get Math in 2 turns instead of 3. Chittagong founded, at least on gpt and science output, no considerable effect. No builds jumped up as well. IBT. Hittite spear/longbow are coming in the direction of Sardica from Kanesh towards Hyderabad.

[7] 10BC. All quiet. IBT. Inca comes and asks for alliance against Maya and RoP. We can get Philo, or Lit, or HBR, or Mysticism from them for that. But I decline atm. OK, we got math, going for Currency at min for now with a lonely scientist in Dehli. Dehli spear->sword, Madras spear ->sword, Jaipur rax->sword.

[8] 10AD. Nothing much, just moving units here and there. IBT. Massive forest chop finished (poor Mother Nature). Dehli sword->sword, Bombay sword->cat, Bangalore sword -> sword, Calcutta rax ->sword.

[9] 30AD. Some gpt deal finished and we have +23gpt now. Can spend them on research or on upgrades. The latter might be better but hard to tell. AI tends to extort even that little cash we have, so it might be a close call. I buy TM from Theo instead for WM+25g+1gpt. Theo just captured Hittite capital. We have a chance, especially if need alliance. Do not do it this turn, because a few of our units are still moving. Actually, we can get a tech discount (about 50-100g) with Theo for alliance against Mursilis. And Inca are still interested in alliance against Maya.
IBT. X-man comes and tells he does not want our RoP deal to extend. Hence, the deal is cancelled. Theo comes and offers the alliance. We ask to think for another turn for now. She then cancels RoP deal as well. Madras sword -> sword.

[10] 50AD. Have not moved units or checked diplo.

Note to LK: There is a settler fortified in Madras. We are ready and all set. We have 10 swords near Kadesh, 3 more are moving in, no cats though. Political situation is more or less clear. These alliances look really tempting. It would be easy to get them but tough to keep the rep intact through them though. There are also 3 swords in the vicinity of Kanesh. There is also a Hittite galley galley near Jaipur. We can ask them out or declare war. If we ask them out and they declare, we get some reversed war happiness. This might easy the luxury burden a bit. However, in this case, value of alliances would drop substantially but not sure by how much exactly. If they do not declare and withdraw, we can proceed with alliances. IMO, going for alliance with Inca against Maya is a sure bet but dangerous. Going for alliance against Hittites is a tough call.

 

[LKendter]

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Danz
Hotrod0823
Akots

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

 

[danz]

...
[6] 30BC. I give up and hire 2 scientists in corrupt cities so that we can get Math in 2 turns instead of 3...
[8] 10AD. ...Delhi sword->sword, Bombay sword->cat, Bangalore sword -> sword, Calcutta rax ->sword.
[9] 30AD. ...Madras sword -> sword.
[10] 50AD. ...

All that fuss about Mathematics and Catapults, and then we don't build any, making swords even in towns with no barracks

Hehehe!

You know, we probably don't need cats, anyway. We need to get a chunk of Hittite territory and extract some techs from them while they're still alive! If we wait long enought to build up a significant number of catapults, there will be nothing for them to do. By the time we're ready to take on the next opponent, cats and swords will be useless. We'll need cavalry and cannons. Our army is becoming obsolete before we even put it to use. So I would urge war, it's now or never (at least not with this army).

 

[akots]

By building cats we are building trebuchets, cannons, and arty as well. This is one of the most versatile units in the game, never obsolete. Swords are good but they end with guerillas which is of very limited use.

Because "building regular swords" is not good, Math might be a must to have. And these cats would come up to the battlefield just in time.

Believe me, we need cats and as many as we can possibly afford. This is the only way to win with horsemen against riflemen. Cavalry is too far away at our present condition.

But the assault has to be started as soon as possible. IMHO, there is enough troops to try to raze a city or may be two and resettle them.

 

[Greebley]

The Hittites only have 7 cities and are probably on the way out. I think we won't have much problem vs them. We may want to make peace for techs shortly before they are destroyed to maximize what we can get.

I don't think we want to make alliances vs them - they are already at war with half the world and an alliance would mean we can't grab the techs.

I think we have plenty of troops already. My only concern would be with boats and the fact we have only warriors defending our towns. We have one warrior back there; he can follow the boat.

Hooking up the second silk was extremely dangerous - a risk to our rep - a demand followed by a war is more common than one would like at the SID level. Also if anyone demands it from us, we would be unable to attack the Hittites as our only trade route passes through their territory and we would be unable to attack until we got another. We should make map making a priority so we can get a harbor and safely trade. Persia for example would give us a tech and world map for that silk. If we can't get map making easily we could complete a road to Sardica to give us a second trade route.

I would either pillage the second silk or declare war this turn. I feel we are ready for a war declaration so that is the route I would choose if it were up to me.

 

[LKendter]

@Akots - Please turn over the game at the END of the turn.

Standard LK house rules:
6) Complete your turn. It is frustrating to get a 1/2 completed turn.

=====================================

50 AD
50AD and we have map trading available.

I swap Delhi to settler. Raze and replace cities doesn't work well when we have just one settler.

Now that I see the game I am not impressed with Bengal as an additional city. It redeems no new tiles.

We need to use our resources to catch up. I ship Persia Silks, $1/turn and $47. This gets us Map Making and Mysticism. This solves the problem with no harbors to build. Karachi swaps to harbor due in 1 turn. This should keep our trade routes going once the war starts. Our fishing village of Chittagong also swaps to harbor.

I ship the Maya iron and $1/turn and get Code of Laws, Horseback Riding, Philosophy, and Polytheism. I switch some cities to courthouse. We are suffering from to much corruption.

I swap research to Republic due in 32 turns. We need to get a better government.
(IT) We get our first palace expansion.


70 AD
The troops are now in position to declare war next round.
(IT) The Maya complete Smith's. The culture monster Byzantine completes Shakespeare. Persia cascades and completes Newton's.


90 AD
I dial up the Inca and agree to punish the Hittites in exchange for Currency, and $8. I doubt the Hittites will last even my round.
(IT) An unknown civ killed the pikemen in Kadesh.
Our palace has expanded again.


110 AD
We lost 2 of the 3 swords next to Kanesh to kill 1 spearman. The jungle city may survive awhile.

We raze Kadesh and get 4 workers at the cost of 1 swordsman.
We raze Ivriz and get 1 worker at the cost of 1 swordsman.

I have to scramble the troops to block Emar. Now to pray it holds against 2 AI units. We need that spot to get any decent new city sites.
(IT) The AI fails vs. Emar.


130 AD
Punjab is formed.
(IT) Maya and Inca sign a peace treaty.
The Byzantine captured Kanesh.


150 AD
We raze Emar and gain 3 more workers. We get our first promote to elite.
It looks like the Byzantine are down to just there capitol.


170 AD
Dacca is formed.


190 AD
Indus is formed. This is the last replacement city.
(IT) The Hittites have been destroyed by the Byzantines.


230 AD
(IT) This is so annoying. I have to waste $19 to get Persia to go away.


250 AD
The Maya suddenly need horses. I ship it to them along with $12 and $6/turn. We have finally entered the Middle Ages. We have 3 techs to go before our UU is available.


Summary:
We are in better shape. I still have no clue how we will win this thing. I have never had to catch up a full age before. Our best hope looks like a war between the Byzantine and Persia.

We really need to have our GA. Republic is due in 13 turns. We need that extra revenue.

I have one spear out exploring to improve our map knowledge before the city borders expand.

=====================================


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Danz (on deck)
Hotrod0823
Akots

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK74-250AD.zip

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it. I am thinking the push for republic is the most important. We probably also have several new buildings that need building. I will probably concentrate on these things rather than war. We will want another war, but that will be for later when we are republic.

 

[LKendter]

We probably also have several new buildings that need building.

I switched to pure buildings with temples at the new borders cities, some courthouses in high corruption cities, and a ton of marketplaces.

 

[akots]

... I still have no clue how we will win this thing. I have never had to catch up a full age before. ...

The AIs are supposed to choke themselves with units and stop researching at a certain point. Especially if they don't have coal. If they don't stop researching and one of them starts to run away in the tech race and expands substantially, so ... we lose. Otherwise, it is mostly pillaging all the roads and resources with armies and defending against the swarm of attackers. We can catch up in tech later in the game mostly by careful stealing which would be much cheaper than buying or researching.

Re half-turn: OK, these are house rules. But completing the turn would have required declaration of war against Hittites. I left it up to you.

We had that worker fortified on a tile and not building any roads. At least the turn I inherited. Hence we were unable to trade. I noticed it half-way through the turns and woke him up. Was it on purpose? Just curious.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: All builds look good for an infrastructure push.

Early: I hire some more scientists; Republic earlier will help us more than our current slow growth. We can irrigate grasslands to make up for the slower grow.
Republic in 8.

Byzantines and Persia ally vs the Mayans.

Mid: I see that Persia is building Rails. Too bad the GLib is so inaccessable. We are woefully behind. I would say that we should research Mil Tradition before Education. It might give us a chance to grab it and catch up (assuming haven't already lost).

Late: We get Republic and revolt.
350 AD: We are a republic! I buy Monotheism and wines for silks and 35 gpt.

Notes:
We are short on Luxuries and Religious, so I think cathedrals are worth building. I got Monotheism for this reason.

Our unit costs are way too high. I disbanded some of our regular warriors which helped. I think we should get rid of the last two, but we need a unit to guard those towns. We are now at 38 gold per turn. This will go down after we build aquaducts and get to size 7.

Two towns are in disorder so they wouldn't lose size when in anarchy.

I spent a long time debating on whether to build aquaducts or markets first. I usually prefer aquaducts so towns can start growing, but I know a lot of people prefer Markets . I finally decided on markets though since we only have 1 lux and supporting cities over size 6 is hard. The next player can switch though if they want. Markets of course don't help our happiness at all (2 lux) so we may need cathedrals or trades for more Lux to grow.

Don't expect the AI to slow down significantly in tech. Persia are building rails and I bet the Byzantines have enough lands to do so as well. These two will race for the spaceship trading techs back and forth. It is not going to be easy (and may be impossible). We simply need to get our strength up as fast as possible.

 

[Greebley]

Here is a current map:

 

[LKendter]

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Danz (currently playing)
Hotrod0823 (on deck)
Akots

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

 

[danz]

Got it!

Things look good! I'll try to maintain the peace and build up.

 

[akots]

... Don't expect the AI to slow down significantly in tech. Persia are building rails and I bet the Byzantines have enough lands to do so as well. These two will race for the spaceship trading techs back and forth. It is not going to be easy (and may be impossible). We simply need to get our strength up as fast as possible.

This is really bad news.

I also don't like trading silks to Persia deal. These silks would have better been pillaged. Looks like that AIs with most luxuries (and coal) are actually becoming the runaways more often.

 

[Greebley]

I know what you mean, but I think it is more important to speed ourselves up than slow them down. I traded with the Persians because the Incans would give us little for it and the Mayans are being double teamed and I didn't want to risk our rep and the Byzantines are in the lead.

Remember that both us and the Persians benefit, so we stay even with Persia perhaps, but catch up a tiny bit with the Byzantines.

We traded it for one of the three techs we need for our UU and the GA.

------------------------------
A thought just occurred to me. Maybe it would be better to research at full for Feudalism given that Feudalism costs so much more to buy than to research (with the 50% surcharge of having a govt). What do ppl think?