LK74 - Sid, Civ = TDB

[danz]

1.350: Sign ROP with Inca. They pay us 1GPT+ 4G.
Sell Iron to the Maya for Engineering + 180G. They need it if they're going to put up a fight against the Byzantine juggernaut. Looked at the power graph lately? Yikes!
Sell our last Silk to the Byzantines and throw in 4GPT for Ivory and Furs. Our people are pleased, and we can drop the Lux rate to 10%.
We hire one scientist to research Feudalism for us, otherwise we leave Sci at 0% and decide to make some money.

360-370: Building courthouses and markets...

4.380: Starting to clear jungles in neutral territory, in hopes of building a city there some day. You never know where the resources may pop up, and it doesn't look like anyone is interested in this piece of real estate.

5.390: Maya offer Literature for 230G. No thanks. We're not building any libraries in this game!

6.400: Madras settler->aquaduct. I decided to build a settler for the future jungle city, and we're growing faster than we can build aquaducts, anyway.

7.410: Theodora is building Universal Suffrage. Figures.

420-440: More building...

Watch out for a deal that's about to expire with the Maya. They're going to get killed by the Byzantines soon. We may want to think about GPT or resources deals with them. There are three upgraded trebuchets in our capital, ready to head in whichever direction they're needed. The bones of two squads of warriors were used to build courthouses in the SW territories, and some SE swords were scattered around the empire as needed. We're still somewhat concentrated around the SE border, but there's not much extra military around.

 

[LKendter]

Danz,
Please watch when your turn ends. You should have played to 450AD. This is the second time you played the wrong number of turns.

We hire one scientist to research Feudalism for us, otherwise we leave Sci at 0% and decide to make some money.

We can't afford to wait 42 turns for feudalism. I would like to build some War Elephants before the AI has infantry, yet alone mech infantry.. I checked the game and we can research it in just 16 turns. 8 turns were wasted when we are hopelessly behind in tech. IMHO this was a mistake.

6.400: Madras settler->aqueduct. I decided to build a settler for the future jungle city

Where do you see a city spot? A city south of Dacca would be cultural suicide. I am lost what spot you plan on building.

We may want to think about GPT or resources deals with them.

GPT deals are fine. We don't get hurt if we are only shipping money. Shipping resources is what kills us.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Danz
Hotrod0823 (currently playing)
Akots (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

 

[hotrod0823]

I've got it

Hotrod

 

[Greebley]

If we haven't spent the money, then we haven't lost 8 turns as we can raise science to give us a negative income and essentially convert the cash back to research. I agree on full speed on feudalism (as I think I already stated).

 

[hotrod0823]

If we haven't spent the money, then we haven't lost 8 turns as we can raise science to give us a negative income and essentially convert the cash back to research. I agree on full speed on feudalism (as I think I already stated).

That is yet another touchy move as Lee already pointed out. I did this during my last set of turns to shave a turn or 2 off of research but if our gold gets demanded then we risk losing a building because of the -gpt.

I will do what I can to remedy the situation.

 

[akots]

Feudalism and Chivalry might be better certainly to research ourselves especially if it is less than 10-15 turns. For subsequent techs stealing might be an option to consider. Going for careful steal every 5-8 turns is almost a sure bet. Though war is always possible if we get caught. Overall it does not look that bad. However, we might have problems with the pathetic state of our military.

If we are planning to research consistently, we should have some libraries and then universities. Otherwise, researching without improvements is just a waste of money IMO.

 

[danz]

...If we are planning to research consistently, we should have some libraries and then universities. Otherwise, researching without improvements is just a waste of money IMO.

Yep. We have a fair amount of markets, yet no libraries. We don't even have Literature yet. And we're commercial, so banks will be much cheaper than universities. So, it seems much more realistic to buy techs than research them. In the short run it's a little iffy because of the price that the AI puts on Feudalism. But in the long run, research without a single library is just wasting the slider.

Also, Theodora is building Universal Suffrage. That means she will have infantry by the time we can build our elephants. Everyone is building rifles. So, we may want to reconsider that plan.

 

[LKendter]

And we're commercial, so banks will be much cheaper than universities.

Per the civilopedia under commericial:
The center squares of all cities and metros produce extra commerce, and less corruption is experience.

I don't understand why you think banks are cheaper.

 

[danz]

Aren't banks commercial improvements, like marketplaces?

 

[Greebley]

You never get a discount in shields on markets, banks, etc.

Lee's post quotes all the effects of the commercial trait. No building discounts.

 

[danz]

::scratches head::

 

[hotrod0823]

Quick update:

I was very with the inherited turn and made a few okay more than a few changes. I am sure akots will do the same to may turns as well.

Anyway, I have started but really would like to hear what our focus should be. We a woefully behind, have nothing to speak of for territory. Have been using resources and lux like cash but can't dig out of the hole fast enough.

Before I delve too deep I just want to hear some thoughts from the Sid vets, before I do something stupid and dig us even deeper.

Oh and BTW Persia has 10K in gold and Mayans are dead.

 

[LKendter]

hear some thoughts from the Sid vets

Can't help you here. This is my first, and maybe last, Sid attempt.

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A GA would really help us. I would try to push us toward Chivalry. That is why I wanted feudalism researched.

 

[Greebley]

I have played some SID SG's. Won 2 and lost one (both the 2 wins had food bonus starts - I have not won without that). This far behind is very difficult. The Mayans gone means 2 major civs left, with presumably Byzantine being stronger.

I think we need to go for knights and then hit the Byzantines with Persia's and try to grab those outlying cities and do some damage to them. This risks a loss if we and Persia start losing, but it seems the only hope to me. We need to grow and slow the AI the best we can.

After we get knights, then head toward Cavalry. If we can get big enough and take out Persia's capitol we can catch up in tech instantly (GLib); though if we attack Persia now, the Byzantines will win.

Note that we are playing an extremely difficult variant of SID. No starting food bonus makes the game extremely difficult, and we started on a small map which to my mind is the hardest size due to limited trade opportunities making it easier to fall behind.

 

[danz]

Concur on hitting Byantines first and Persia second. My only question is about waiting for elephants. The advantages would be speed, a GA, extra attack, and extra HP. Not bad. But the disadvantage is that waiting risks giving Byzantium more time to develop. What if they get cavalry? What if they get infantry? Right now the best troop we can see is a D6 rifleman, something our A3 sword has a small chance of beating. But at least swords are cheap, and our cats can keep up wit them. Will our A4 elephants fare that much better against D10 infantry? Not without artillery support. That could get really ugly.

 

[Greebley]

They already have cavalry and rifles. I think we can get knights before infantry, but we have to hurry.

I think we would be in trouble without knights. We need to be able to attack and retreat.

BTW, do we have enough artillery units? Attacking uninjured rifles with knights is a losing proposition. We will need a lot of them I think.

 

[akots]

Must second Greebley on all points. My experience is limited to half SG where we are in a good position playing an insane variant and 4 single player games, 2 lost and 2 won on large-standard maps all with food bonus on start. As a plus, none of these games used pre-made or checked map.

If we can set up a choke, fish for a leader with the help of cats, and then go pillaging with army(ies), we would be OK. If not, there is little chance to survive to the end. For the choke to happen, we can try to exclude the naval invasion possibilities. If AI would have a good border with us, they would not try to unload units from transports in various places. They don't land much usually, no more than 8 units/tile, but this is very annoying and considering the pathetic state of our development, might result in serious losses. Once the kill ratio is good and pillaging is devastating, we can make peace, so that AI can make more units and have less gold for research. Then it might be a war again. Then rinse and repeat untill they are gassed. It takes time though and meanwhile, it might be a good idea to start careful stealing. Then, with the help of arty again, we can slowly advance. For this to happen, cavalry would be nice to have as well as Replaceable parts. But this plan sometimes works and sometimes does not, hard to tell. Either your army can get killed or you cannot stand the choke and it falls.

Either way, attack 4 fast units are a must to have, the more the better.

 

[LKendter]

@hotrod - any updates on your progress?

I know this situation is hard as are cities are way to small and we have incorrectly focused cities on shields.

 

[danz]

I know this situation is hard as are cities are way to small and we have incorrectly focused cities on shields.

I'm confused about this satement. Why do you think so? As far as I can tell, these additional people would be working unimproved tiles. Some of our border towns are already working several of those as they overtake their worker gangs. More people would also require us to increase our Luxury spending to keep them all from rioting. So, how would more people help us? Especially in towns that require aquaducts to grow, which is most of our towns to date. All it would mean is reaching max pop in more towns that would be stuck in "growing in 9999 turns" mode until we built aquaducts while our river cities grow to the point where we are running 40% Luxury spending and/or hiring specialists. Isn't it better to build courthouses and markets? And produce a worker every now and then as a city reaches its population limit?

Maybe it's just me, I've started to follow a strategy of higher numbers of smaller cities. The happiness is easier to manage, there is less pollution, and I haven't participated in a space race since C3Vanilla, therefore huge shield output is meaningless. So, big towns don't really push my buttons any more. I only make an exception for the capital.

 

[LKendter]

I will start with a general comment. Many of the best players from these boards that I expanded my game knowledge all believe growth is the number one issue. It took awhile for me to understand, but I now 100% agree with them.

I can't write up a short post that can explain all of this, but I am 100% sold on keep your cities growing.

We are commercial and start getting our commerce bonus at size 7. We get extra unit support at size 7. The commercial trait is about money, and larger cities = more money.

Especially in towns that require aqueducts to grow, which is most of our towns to date.

This is one of the exceptions to maximum growth. Once the city hits size 6, then max shields until you can get to size 7. The other exceptions are things such as delaying growth to complete the granary first.

And produce a worker every now and then as a city reaches its population limit?

Peeling off workers at size six is always a good idea. This will happen more often with fast growing cities.

I've started to follow a strategy of higher numbers of smaller cities.

This comes with a trade off. I agree happiness is easier. However, corrupt is worse.

Isn't it better to build courthouses and markets?

My comment isn't about what we build. My issue is about size 3 and 4 cities configured for 1 spare food.

So, how would more people help us?

I wish I had a link to point you to. It is impossible to explain all the reasons in a short post. The hardest thing to catch up with is population.

More people would also require us to increase our Luxury spending to keep them all from rioting.

I will gladly pay higher luxuries if I can get more shields out of our cities. This will spend up the needed buildings in the cities, and happiness will catch up as the buildings complete.

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I really don't know what to say. Our playing styles are very different. I never would have started temples in cities during the expansion phase. To me it is a lot easier to build a city early on, then to have to get them via military. I really think this game could have gotten at least one to two more cities in the expansion phase with a better push for city growth and getting the cities sooner.