LK80 - Science Experiment, Carthage, Deity

[LKendter]

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
hotrod0823
Kaiser_Berger
Greebley

Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow. We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

2) We may not build the GL, and raze the city with the GL. This rule expires when we own education.

3) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

4) Minimum research is not allowed.

5) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

6) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

7) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[LKendter]

400 AD
I agree that the Iroquois are the number one threat this game, and will need to be trimmed soon. Their culture level is clearly double any other civ, and they 29% of the world already.


420 AD
(IT) The Iroquois destroy the Celts.


470 AD
I ship the Ottomans $14 and Banking and get Gunpowder.
This is very close to 50% tech value, but I ship Russia Banking, $132 and $30/turn and get Astronomy.
This is about 40% of tech value. I ship Persia Astronomy, $34/turn for Chemistry.
The bad news is these trades gutted our research abilities and Physics needs 41 turns. We need the war with the Ottomans to kill a few units off.


480 AD
(IT) The Babylonian bully gets $19 and tm.

The Iroquois are building Newton's.


490 AD
The Iroquois cities have smokestacks.


500 AD
I ship China Theology and get Horses, $4/turn and $26.
I cancel the Gems deal with the Ottomans.


==========================

Summary:
We are doing OK for techs. I think the printing press side tour really hurt us. I realize it will delay libraries, but next game I will prohibit optional tech research.

I didn't official declare war, but I feel war with the Ottomans is needed NOW. Any later and Sipahi will probably be in play.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
hotrod0823 (on deck)
Kaiser_Berger
Greebley

Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow. We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

2) We may not build the GL, and raze the city with the GL. This rule expires when we own education.

3) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

4) Minimum research is not allowed.

5) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

6) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

7) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK80-500AD.zip

 

[microbe]

preturn: I buy dyes with 12gpt from Iros and lower lux to 10. This gives us 26gpt instead of 15gpt.

IBT Renew lux deal with Persia and pay 63g. Persia and China make peace.

(1)510AD:

IBT Iros declare on Persia. Iro and Bab starts JS Bach.

(2)520AD: Declare on Ottoman. IBT Iros complete Shakespear.

(3)530AD: There are 5 pikemen in Uskudar. We lose one knight and raze the city. Get 4 slaves.

IBT Persia and Babylon MA vs Persia.

(4)540AD: IBT knight retreats from longbow and pike dies against our redlined knight.

(5)550AD: Iro demands TM+24g.

(6)560AD: All bombardment failed so no attack this turn.

IBT we retreat a knight. Iros complete Smith.

(7)570AD: We lose 3 knights and capture Antalya. We'll starve it down.

IBT We can now build FP - what, only now?

(8)580AD:

(9)590AD: I see Iro rifles running around.

(10)600AD: kill pike and capture settler.

We have stack next to Izmit that can attack next turn. There was almost no counter-attack except a few pikemen trying to pillage. We have two settlers. One is next to Antalya and could be used to replace Izmit. The other is in Theveste.

Persia is losing to Iros. We need to dogpile it at some point.

There is a pike next to Leptis Magna. Kill it when it comes off the mountain.

I suggest we switch Theveste to FP due in 14 turns.

 

[microbe]

 

[LKendter]

IBT Persia and Babylon MA vs Persia.

Persia agreed to beat itself up?

I suggest we switch Theveste to FP due in 14 turns.

I agree 100%. It shows how small our empire is since that option just became available.

We have stack next to Izmit that can attack next turn.

Spare iron is always good. I would definitely raze that city to not put our spare iron as risk. Persia lacks iron.

Persia is losing to Iros. We need to dog pile it at some point.

They are now almost half-way to domination. We need the era of cavalry with multiple nations hitting the Iroquois.


A minor nitpick, but don't waste the elite knight protecting the settler. I would like to get an army. Major pillaging against the Iroquois with some explorers underneath it would really help us.

The biggie I see is NO GA yet. Please find a chance to attack with the Mercs and get us a victory. I would even risk losing a couple to get the GA. Don't end the Ottoman war until we get a GA. The Ottomans are feeling some pain as they will already give us there complete world map.

This would be a big help to speed up all the buildings in progress. It would also finish the FP a lot quicker. This can also help the science push to get to cavalry before the Iroquois get infantry. The AI sucks during the infantry vs. infantry time period. We need the AI to be an actual help. 25000 culture points already also scares me. They need to be hit ASAP. They are really dangerous with owning Smiths to become a runaway science civ.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
hotrod0823 (currently playing)
Kaiser_Berger (on deck)
Greebley

Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow. We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

2) We may not build the GL, and raze the city with the GL. This rule expires when we own education.

3) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

4) Minimum research is not allowed.

5) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

6) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

7) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[Greebley]

I think we will want more trebs. An AW style warfare vs Iroquois could keep them from destroying Persia and growing further.

I am thinking perhaps:

Peace with the Ottomans fairly soon.
Declare a mostly defensive war vs Iroquois to use up their troops and keep them from growing further.
Probably ally with Bablyon and Russia and Persia.
They probably don't have rifles in their newest towns, so Persia or Russia may be able to trim them in the NE.
They would be isolated from tech trades and deals with other civs. Combined with a fairly intense war we may be able to slow them in tech.
At some point we could destroy some of their towns to really hurt them.

One of the biggest problems is that we may not be able to maintain Republic if we did this.

 

[hotrod0823]

I've got it.

Will swap to FP and continue the Ottoman war for the short term. Go for a GA and try and get some trebs etc. as Greebley suggested.

 

[hotrod0823]

An official UN-Got it!

Was going to play tonight but have a busy night planned. My wife and I are expecting, due date was 12/27 but after her appointment today we are going for an induction starting this afternoon.

Enjoy! I'll be back the later in the week.

Hotrod

 

[LKendter]

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
hotrod0823
Kaiser_Berger (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)

Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow. We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

2) We may not build the GL, and raze the city with the GL. This rule expires when we own education.

3) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

4) Minimum research is not allowed.

5) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

6) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

7) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

I've got it.

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

Preturn- We're looking alright.

IT- zzz

T1 610

I use a captured treb to knock an hp off a Ottoman pike, attack with a merc that dies. Next merc attacks it and wins, and we enter our Golden Age

Only one of our six trebs misses at Izmit, nearly redlining the garrison. We lose one knight but easily raze it.

I see a brokering oppurtunity, so I make peace with the Ottomans for Physics with us only paying 40g.

Physics then goes to Russia with 99g and 16gpt for Metallurgy.

I then send Physics to Persia for Economics,100g and 10gpt.

Research is set to Military Tradition (which no one has yet) at 50%, due in 12 turns.

IT- zzz

T2 620

Switch Theveste to FP, as I forgot to last turn. Due in 8.

I found Hadrumentum around the ruins of Izmit.

IT- zzz

T3 630

Carthage finishes a Uni.

IT- zzz

T4 640

Not much.

IT- zzz

T5 650

Nothing new.

IT- Russia and Persia sign peace.

T6 660

I caught a worker that was automated and promptly shut it down. I didn't do it. Who's been hitting up the lately?

IT- zzz

T7 670

We just went from +0gpt to +71, deal must have ended. I jack up research to 70% to get MT in 4 turns instead of 5.

IT- The rapaging Iroquois have destroyed the Persians. That was fast.

T8 680

The Ottomans have gone Industrial. Not much else.

IT- Nothing.

T9 690

Nothing.

IT- The Iroquois begin Uni Suff. We lose our horses.

T10 700

As one might expect, All the AI excpet China learn Military Tradition the turn before we learn it I buy it for a paltry 15g from the Ottomans and start us off on Magnetism at 60% due in 6 turns. I buy some wines from Babylon to get our people back to work as we have too many scientists for my liking.


Summary

We gained some tech ground, but the failed run on MT hurt. We could have caught up even further with a monopoly on it. We're still concentrating on Infrastructure during the GA, but Carthage has begun to pump out some trebs.

 

[microbe]

Can't we buy saltpeter from someone?

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

I think there is probably some availbe from Russia, if not someone else. Next player should definitely look into getting that and some horses for cavs.

 

[Greebley]

I got it. Will play tonight I suspect

What are our goals for the rest of our GA? Do we want to try to attack the Iroquois? Or Build up Infra?

I feel the former is probably necessary, just not sure when. The sooner the better though.

 

[LKendter]

All the AI except China learn Military Tradition the turn before we learn it I buy it for a paltry 15g from the Ottomans and start us off on Magnetism at 60% due in 6 turns.

This is the second optional tech attempt that FAILED. In the mean time we probably missed the 2-fer with Russia for ToG. IMO we could be industrial right now without the 2 optional tech runs.
@All - No More Optional Techs!
NOTE: New rule effective now: 7) Research is prohibited on optional techs.

The GA is caught with 2 high priority goals of Iroquois war and needed buildings. We will never catch up in tech without more universities, so I feel buildings are the higher priority. If we have any spare care we should upgrade our knights to cavalry. I think I am going to be forced to start operation suicide and fight the Iroquois before we lose this game.

======================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
hotrod0823
Kaiser_Berger
Greebley (currently playing)

Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow. We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

2) We may not build the GL. We must raze the GL city. The raze rule expires when we own education.

3) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

4) Minimum research is not allowed.

5) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

6) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

7) Research is prohibited on optional techs.

8) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[Greebley]

We did need military tradition. I am assuming the reason going for it was bad is because we are scientific. When we get to the new age we get a free tech. If we had gone for non-optional techs, we would be able to get the free tech and trade for the optional ones.

My feeling is that if we weren't scientific then researching "necessary" optional techs like Mil Trad (it is necessary for our war with the Iroquois) aren't bad per-se. We could have gone for a required tech and gotten burnt too.

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

I typically don't research Optional techs outside of Republci and Literature, but since we require MT to do stand a chance against the Iroquois and it was unknown and we had a chance of monopoly, I had to take it. And we are not scientific, BTW.

 

[LKendter]

Maybe I over-reacted on Military Tradition. I think part of the problem is I haven't gotten over Printing Press. I am now making it very clear that this variant will NOT see worthless techs like Printing Press researched. I would love to have to 9 turns of research back.

I have reworded yet again and will allow a few specific optional techs. We will be allowed to research sanitation.


======================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
Hotrod0823
Kaiser_Berger
Greebley (currently playing)

Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow.
We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

2) We may not research at negative if that will leave us less then $100 in cash.

3) We may not build the GL. We must raze the GL city. The raze rule expires when we own education.

4) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

5) Minimum research is not allowed.

6) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

7) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

8) Research is prohibited on optional techs except the following specific techs: Literature, Republic, Military Tradition and Sanitation.

9) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[Greebley]

I agree with your list of optional techs seems best. I could see us wanting others later in the game (nationalism, espionage), but feel we should discuss those before such a decision first.

 

[LKendter]

In case people can't tell I want to see the science expirment played more. To do that I need to solidfy the rules. I added Nationalism as a valid tech. Spies open a whole new can of worms...

======================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
Hotrod0823
Kaiser_Berger
Greebley (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow.
We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

2) We may not research at negative if that will leave us less then $100 in cash.

3) We may not build the GL. We must raze the GL city. The raze rule expires when we own education.

4) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

5) Minimum research is not allowed.

6) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

7) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

8) Research is prohibited on optional techs except the following specific techs: Literature, Republic, Military Tradition, Nationalism, and Sanitation.

9) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.