LK83 - AWE Invitational, Random Civ, Emperor

[meldor]

The problem was that the best we could do was to drop it from 50 turns to 47 turns and that would have required an additional 23gpt for science. I didn't see us getting that in the time it would have taken to get the tech. The next tech will have the benefit of the markets and larger cities but until then, we would have been throwing money down a hole with nothing to show for it.

 

[meldor]

400 AD (5)
(I)We retreat one horse and get one squaree pillaged. We have units getting past our front line and things get dicy in the north as we have a stack of archers and a stack of MDI. Nanking MDI->MDI

410 AD (6)
All the pinger are losed and we do 50-50. Our vet MDI in the south goes elite killing a Jav. The elite kills a second. The archers got bombed so I kill two of the MDI with the Sword army. The MDI army can only kill a horse as it has to protect Xinjian until I get another pike up there.
(I) Get one of the gems pillaged. The first knights appear. Finish the walls in Shatung start Rax.

420 AD (7)
MDI kills Jav on gems. Kill 3 archers and a MDI in the North. Kill two Javs and and a pike in the south but lose a 5HP elite MDI attacking a 3HP Jav.
(I) An MDI in the north holds off a 2hp archer. The MDI at Tatung kills 3 horses and 1 Jav will retreating a forth horse. Anyang walls->Rax. The vorder expansion last turn at Hangchow is good as the units have to retreat farther.

430 AD (8)
Darn, the MDI kills the Jav trying to pillage the second gems and goes elite. That means it can't go into the army yet. The other MDI kills the last Jav near the gems. I pound a stack of 3 AC, an archer, a horse and a warrior. Between that and the 3 Javs, I hope Tatung can hold out. I move a warrior and archer to give us more bodies.
(I) One of the ACs kill off our MDI sitting on a mountain. The rest of the stack is repeled by the pike at Tatung although 2 AC retreat. Shanghai Market->MDI, Canton Pike->Pike. The Americans start Cops.

440 AD (9)
MDI army kills the Knight. Move pike to cover Xinjian. The pingers hit a stack of Javs and our elite MDI takes out one and produces a leader. The leader skips to Shanghai were it is swapped to the Pentagon and rushed. The elite MDI near Canton takes out a horse. The southern archer takes out the 1hp AC that killed our MDI. An elite archer in the north takes out a fellow flinger. The good news is that at the end of this turn, there are only 34 enemy units in view.
(I)Holy key-rap! Our elite pike kills one horse and retreats another before dying. Our Elite MDI kills two Javs before the elite warrior becomes the top defender. The elite warrior then holds off three more Javs without taking a single HP damage.. The bad news is that the French Knights arrive in the north. Shanghai Pentagon->MDI. Tientsin settler->Rax. The French start Bach's.

450 AD (10)
Get pike into Tatung. I don't get to kill anything except one Horse. The units will have to heal this turn. It looks like time to hook up the saltpeter and build/upgrade to muskets.

The army and settler in the north are left unmoved. You can guess which way you think the knights will move, or leave it and go either way.

 

[grs]

Got it and will do my best. At least I can fix some cities as I can see from looking at the save.

 

[LKendter]

The leader skips to Shanghai were it is swapped to the Pentagon and rushed.

It may take a bit to get the 4th unit into the armies, but I am glad to have it.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor
Grs (currently playing)
Northern Pike (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.

Variant restrictions:
1) Homeland defense armies only. The armies are prohibited from leaving our borders for even a millisecond. This includes attacking a stack outside borders and moving between 2 cities if there is a border gap.
If an army is trapped outside our borders due to a flip is must return to the nearest city. It may NOT kill any units on the way there.

2) Leader hording is prohibited. If we get a leader, and can't build an army it must be used to rush a building. We can delay using the leader to get it moved to an optimal city and waiting a turn for the shield bin to get empty. Once a leader is set for a building, no shifting back to army.

 

[meldor]

Got it and will do my best. At least I can fix some cities as I can see from looking at the save.

Sorry about that, I played with trying to get max science and didn't re-optimize, it was late.

 

[LKendter]

I will offer more comments, but my first thought is we must limit all future settlers to higher growth cities - Tsingtao can be +4, and Hangchow +5 with granary. Northern Pike said it right that we can't afford settlers out of cities that take 10 turns grow 1 size.

Our number one goal must be growth. When the last 39 turns of Metallurgy end we must be able to research well. 30 beakers a turn won't cut it very well. We need size 7 cities even if the 7th citizen is a specialist. The extra unit support is badly needed.

Please fortify a unit on the wines. The Byzantines WILL bombard that tile. I really don't want wines going off-line.

 

[LKendter]

Looking the game so more I notice we need to get some workers back to the core. Beijing is using and unimproved mountain, Canton is using an unimproved mountain, etc. With how bad the economy is choking we can't afford more workers at this point.

The one thing I am convinced of is we can't afford to hook up the saltpeter yet. We are still to thin on raw number of defenders.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor
Grs (currently playing)
Northern Pike (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.

Variant restrictions:
1) Homeland defense armies only. The armies are prohibited from leaving our borders for even a millisecond. This includes attacking a stack outside borders and moving between 2 cities if there is a border gap.
If an army is trapped outside our borders due to a flip is must return to the nearest city. It may NOT kill any units on the way there.

2) Leader hording is prohibited. If we get a leader, and can't build an army it must be used to rush a building. We can delay using the leader to get it moved to an optimal city and waiting a turn for the shield bin to get empty. Once a leader is set for a building, no shifting back to army.

 

[meldor]

I just see towns with 1 or two pikes having to hold off stacks of knights.

 

[grs]

I wont make it to strikt 48 this turn and need about 12 hour extension - i.e. meldors post + ~60.

 

[LKendter]

You at least gave a status within 48 hours, I will wait another 12.

 

[grs]

To sum it up: no horses flipped to us. That is probably all that would really help us. We have irrigated far too much. Our core is even worse than before, we have size 6 cities that are overirrigated. It is sometimes better to hire a taxman than to work a tile - in our capital! I can't change that though, because we need our workers elsewhere and I am not going to rework the tiles again, better work the unimproved. I have tryed my best to build markets and aqueduct in our core withour losing a city.

Pre: Warrior from Tangtung kills redlined horse. MM some cities. Start to upgrade units (cats, archers and a vet. warrior). Will finish that during my turns. [1-0]

IBT: Kill 1 longbow and 2 javelins, get pillaged. France galley lands an MDI. Byzantines bomb Shantung and will continue that through all my turns almost killing the elite pike. [4-0]

460AD: Load an MDI into the empty army. Kill a javelin. [5-0]

IBT: We kill an AC and lose a pike. [6-1]

470AD: Kill 3 javelins, 1 horse, 1 archer. [11-1]

IBT: --

480AD: Kill 2 knights, 1 spear, 1 archer. [15-1]

IBT: Last 2 Byzantine knights die to pikes. We get pillaged again. [17-1]

490AD: Kill 1 MDI, 1 spear, 1 longbow, 4 javelins. I had to load a pike into the 1 man army to heal it. [24-1]

IBT: Byzantines land a knight. America completes Sistines.

500AD: Chinan founded.

IBT: Byzantines land a pike.

510AD: Kill 2 javelins, 1 AC, 1 longbow, 1 knight, 1 spear, 1 pike. [31-1]

IBT: --

520AD: Kill 2 longbows, 1 warrior, 1 archer. [35-1]

IBT: Kill a longbow. [36-1]

530AD: Kill 1 knight, 1 spear. [38-1]

IBT: Mayas now show longbows near Tsingtao. America starts Newton's.

540AD: Kill 2 archer, 2 longbows. A leader hurries an aqueduct. [42-1]

IBT: Kill 1 longbow, retreat 1 AC, lose 1 pike. Egypt lands a reg warrior. [43-2]

550AD: Kill 4 longbows, 1 knight, 1 pike, 1 warrior. [50-2]

No kill ratio in the world will save us. It is not the tech hole that kills us, it is just not having a horse resource. Even our neighbours France and Maya have none.

I would consider moving the pike from Macao towards Hangchow. All fronts are tricky atm.

 

[meldor]

AWE with slow units only...

 

[LKendter]

I had to load a pike into the 1 man army to heal it.

OUCH - that army is reduced in effectiveness...

America starts Newton's.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Grs
Northern Pike (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.

Variant restrictions:
1) Homeland defense armies only. The armies are prohibited from leaving our borders for even a millisecond. This includes attacking a stack outside borders and moving between 2 cities if there is a border gap.
If an army is trapped outside our borders due to a flip is must return to the nearest city. It may NOT kill any units on the way there.

2) Leader hording is prohibited. If we get a leader, and can't build an army it must be used to rush a building. We can delay using the leader to get it moved to an optimal city and waiting a turn for the shield bin to get empty. Once a leader is set for a building, no shifting back to army.

 

[grs]

Quote:
I had to load a pike into the 1 man army to heal it.

OUCH - that army is reduced in effectiveness...

You are right in general, though I learned here that it is actually not that bad, once we have 3 MDI and 1 pike in it.

 

[Northern Pike]

All fronts are tricky atm.

On that inspiring note, I've got it.

I'm glad you provided the link to the important mixed-army discussion.

 

[LKendter]

@Grs - what happened to the pikemen blockade by Tsingtao? It was in place at 450AD, but now it gone. This opened another front, and was something we didn't need. What are the pikeman on the mountains trying to accomplish?


I must admit I am really stumped why this position is so bad. I have several theories that were thrown out the door. I looked at the game of 150 BC vs. 550 AD. During that time we put 5 more cities on the map. We have a goal of luxury #3. We went from 33 military units to 45 military units.

Our science rate is recovering, but still pathetic. Astronomy still needs 30 turns at 7th civ prices. America is building Newton's that really sounds scary. However, they don't have Banking or Metallurgy. That is a really odd science path for the AI. Science isn't as bad as it first sounded.

I would switch Tsingtao away from aqueduct. It isn't in a position to grow at this time. It needs a temple first.

I am still completely baffled why this game is in such bad shape. I agree with Grs that not having horses hurts. However, the Netherlands AW survived for a long time without them. The Austrian AW game survived lack of iron for a long time.

Even though France / Maya show doesn't mean they aren't nearby. You never know when the idiot workers fail to connect a resource. The horses could be miles away, or in point-blank range.



Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Grs
Northern Pike (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.

 

[Northern Pike]

I am still completely baffled why this game is in such bad shape.

I think it's our near-total lack of bonus food. This problem casts a very long shadow, even when the expansion phase seems to go all right. HNDY11 is also an AWE+ game with China, in which an otherwise decent-looking start didn't have any bonus food. We're in much worse shape there than here, despite having horses.

 

[LKendter]

I think it's our near-total lack of bonus food.

I must agree that hurts. 10% of the world pop is low for 8 civs in the game. This may go back to Sirian's favorite quote of "population is power".

 

[grs]

@Grs - what happened to the pikemen blockade by Tsingtao? It was in place at 450AD, but now it gone. This opened another front, and was something we didn't need. What are the pikeman on the mountains trying to accomplish?

It was extended and broken by longbows who attacked the pikes on the mountain. I moved them up there, because I needed time to get the army there and did not want to lose them all.

The pikeman blockade was never keeping us save from Maya. It only worked till the Maya got a unit with more than 2 attack. They learned invention and immediately came with longbows.

I am still completely baffled why this game is in such bad shape.

Because we are a sitting duck. Our units are too slow to move outside our territory. The differece in position between my last turns and these is so marginal and it will probably not improve again. Our only move 2 units (the 2 and now 3 armies) are not allowed to leave territory and we can never attack and retreat with move 1 units. So basically we could go on the off. and die fast or defend like we did and die slow.

 

[LKendter]

Our units are too slow to move outside our territory.

I agree the lack of fast units suck. However, compare this to LK76 that had no horses AND no luxuries as of 550AD.
LK76 had 17 cites and 21% of the world's population.
LK83 has 14 cities and 10% of the world's population.

LK83 was a brutal game, but it was a WIN. That game had no armies allowed. After making this comparison I am convinced Northern Pike has part of the problem right. We suffered a horrid growth curve. LK76 had another important difference in that most settlers were coming from a granary city that could grow back faster.

One mistake in the game was taking to long to a granary in a decent shield city.